Lech Walesa: Tech Freedom Fighter
06/20/2002 | Technar
Може бути цікаво. Що роблять екс-президенти країн-сусідок України. Текст англійською.
Lech Walesa: Tech Freedom Fighter (Politics 2:00 a.m. PDT)
http://go.hotwired.com/news/politics/0,1283,53299,00.html/wn_ascii
When former Polish president Lech Walesa pops into a chat room to discuss politics, people have a hard time believing they're debating issues with the man largely credited for the downfall of communism in Eastern Europe.
In a telephone conversation from his home in Gdansk, the former shipyard electrician turned Nobel Peace Prize winner spoke about government attempts to stifle technology or to use it to spy on personal communication.
Born the son of peasant farmers in 1943, the feisty politician started the Solidarity movement in 1980, which was pivotal in the defeat of communism throughout Eastern Europe. He was elected president of Poland in 1990, a post he held until 1995.
He recently joined the board of directors of NuTech Solutions, a software company based in North Carolina. NuTech Solutions, which was launched by Polish-born Matthew Michalewicz, writes analytical software that predicts behavior and reduces spending.
Wired News: You've mentioned in past interviews that technology helped topple communism in Poland. Could you be more specific?
Walesa: Communism is a monopolistic system, economically and politically. The system suppresses individual initiative, and the 21st century is all about individualism and freedom. The development of technology supported these directions. When I was fighting communism, there was rapid development of satellite television and cell phones, and communism, to survive, would have to block all these information devices.
To control the free flow of information, the Communists would have to increase the secret police by a factor of four. It would be a huge effort for police to control the channels you get on TV or the phone numbers you are allowed to dial. So technology helped end communism by bringing in information from the outside. It was possible to get news from independent sources; stations like the BBC (British Broadcasting System) and VOA (Voice of America) were beyond government control. During '50s and '60s, the Communist government put people accused of listening to these stations in prison.
Only the minister of Internal Affairs was allowed to issue permits to get satellite TV, and clearly anyone against communism wouldn't get permission. Any equipment connected to processing information, even typewriters and copy machines, had to be registered at police stations.
Very often they searched apartments of people and confiscated equipment, even audio tapes. They once took 50 tapes from me -- some patriotic songs forbidden by the Communists and interviews transmitted by the BBC and VOA as well as songs from the West. I still haven't gotten them back.
It's hard to believe that things like that actually happened from today's perspective.
WN: Cuba, for example, recently banned PC sales to the public and regularly censors satellite, Internet and phone connections to the island. Do you see parallels between the Polish experience and what's going on in Cuba?
Walesa: Cuba is one of the final countries in which communism is still alive. Their system is based on the same system that we had in Central Europe 20 years ago. Clearly Cuba has some advantages over Central Europe at the time because it is closer to the U.S. But communism in Cuba will collapse sooner or later because you can't control the free flow of information.
Communism prevents organizations from developing by stopping the flow of information. The system is based on police and listening devices and triggers the worst characteristics in humans. The communist system is basically finished, and Mr. Castro knows that. But his choice is very limited -- he can only take a gun to his head and commit suicide. He is living his final days, after him there will probably be no replacement. But communism destroyed all independent organizations, so it will be interesting to see what happens.
WN: Do you believe that the use of technology -- such as Carnivore or Echelon -- by democratic governments to spy on personal communications is any worse than totalitarian attempts to do the same?
(At this point in the interview, the phone went dead and immediate attempts to call Walesa back were unsuccessful. His subsequent answers were sent by e-mail).
Walesa: I believe that any violation of privacy is nothing good. But on the other hand, the government is responsible for the safety of the citizens of the country, so it has to protect them. I would distinguish between spying on the people in general and using the newest technologies to spy on the concrete people, or groups of people who might be dangerous for the society -- the society, not for the government, as the regime of the country. I strongly believe this is the situation we are facing in the democratic countries; that is why it is different from the Communist approach.
WN: Has the "tech revolution" benefited Poland?
Walesa: Definitely, the "tech revolution" has not influenced Poland in a way that would be meaningful for the economies of the U.S. or other Western countries. First, the high-tech companies haven't become as influential in our market as in the United States. Second, the development of (Poland) needs many other components; it is not just adding the benefits of the newest technologies on top of a well-organized and well-working economic system. I would say that it is most beneficial for the young people, meaning their education, chances for creating something new in the future. It influenced communication and information, so it is just a first step for us to be benefactors of the "tech" changes in the world.
WN: Do you consider yourself a technophile?
Walesa: Yes, I am a person interested in the development of technology. I use many different gadgets connected with computers; I use PCs, laptops and a Palm Pilot. I also use the Internet to visit websites, especially within Polish-language Internet. I usually go to political discussion groups and sites -- of course, as I use my real name, people never believe that they are chatting with me!
WN: What is your role at NuTech Solutions and what projects does the company have in Poland?
Walesa: As a board member, I will be advising the management of the company and I will take part in creating the policy and strategy of NuTech. In addition to attending each of the company's board meetings, I am committed to providing a great deal of my time to helping NuTech in its promotion and continued growth and development.
It is no secret that (the Polish) economy is now a global economy in which smaller companies can better compete worldwide. NuTech has effectively integrated its top scientific and technology teams in Poland and the United States for a collaborative environment. This would have been very difficult ten years ago. But now companies such as NuTech can lead the way for other American companies to take advantage of the favorable business climate in Poland today.
Lech Walesa: Tech Freedom Fighter (Politics 2:00 a.m. PDT)
http://go.hotwired.com/news/politics/0,1283,53299,00.html/wn_ascii
When former Polish president Lech Walesa pops into a chat room to discuss politics, people have a hard time believing they're debating issues with the man largely credited for the downfall of communism in Eastern Europe.
In a telephone conversation from his home in Gdansk, the former shipyard electrician turned Nobel Peace Prize winner spoke about government attempts to stifle technology or to use it to spy on personal communication.
Born the son of peasant farmers in 1943, the feisty politician started the Solidarity movement in 1980, which was pivotal in the defeat of communism throughout Eastern Europe. He was elected president of Poland in 1990, a post he held until 1995.
He recently joined the board of directors of NuTech Solutions, a software company based in North Carolina. NuTech Solutions, which was launched by Polish-born Matthew Michalewicz, writes analytical software that predicts behavior and reduces spending.
Wired News: You've mentioned in past interviews that technology helped topple communism in Poland. Could you be more specific?
Walesa: Communism is a monopolistic system, economically and politically. The system suppresses individual initiative, and the 21st century is all about individualism and freedom. The development of technology supported these directions. When I was fighting communism, there was rapid development of satellite television and cell phones, and communism, to survive, would have to block all these information devices.
To control the free flow of information, the Communists would have to increase the secret police by a factor of four. It would be a huge effort for police to control the channels you get on TV or the phone numbers you are allowed to dial. So technology helped end communism by bringing in information from the outside. It was possible to get news from independent sources; stations like the BBC (British Broadcasting System) and VOA (Voice of America) were beyond government control. During '50s and '60s, the Communist government put people accused of listening to these stations in prison.
Only the minister of Internal Affairs was allowed to issue permits to get satellite TV, and clearly anyone against communism wouldn't get permission. Any equipment connected to processing information, even typewriters and copy machines, had to be registered at police stations.
Very often they searched apartments of people and confiscated equipment, even audio tapes. They once took 50 tapes from me -- some patriotic songs forbidden by the Communists and interviews transmitted by the BBC and VOA as well as songs from the West. I still haven't gotten them back.
It's hard to believe that things like that actually happened from today's perspective.
WN: Cuba, for example, recently banned PC sales to the public and regularly censors satellite, Internet and phone connections to the island. Do you see parallels between the Polish experience and what's going on in Cuba?
Walesa: Cuba is one of the final countries in which communism is still alive. Their system is based on the same system that we had in Central Europe 20 years ago. Clearly Cuba has some advantages over Central Europe at the time because it is closer to the U.S. But communism in Cuba will collapse sooner or later because you can't control the free flow of information.
Communism prevents organizations from developing by stopping the flow of information. The system is based on police and listening devices and triggers the worst characteristics in humans. The communist system is basically finished, and Mr. Castro knows that. But his choice is very limited -- he can only take a gun to his head and commit suicide. He is living his final days, after him there will probably be no replacement. But communism destroyed all independent organizations, so it will be interesting to see what happens.
WN: Do you believe that the use of technology -- such as Carnivore or Echelon -- by democratic governments to spy on personal communications is any worse than totalitarian attempts to do the same?
(At this point in the interview, the phone went dead and immediate attempts to call Walesa back were unsuccessful. His subsequent answers were sent by e-mail).
Walesa: I believe that any violation of privacy is nothing good. But on the other hand, the government is responsible for the safety of the citizens of the country, so it has to protect them. I would distinguish between spying on the people in general and using the newest technologies to spy on the concrete people, or groups of people who might be dangerous for the society -- the society, not for the government, as the regime of the country. I strongly believe this is the situation we are facing in the democratic countries; that is why it is different from the Communist approach.
WN: Has the "tech revolution" benefited Poland?
Walesa: Definitely, the "tech revolution" has not influenced Poland in a way that would be meaningful for the economies of the U.S. or other Western countries. First, the high-tech companies haven't become as influential in our market as in the United States. Second, the development of (Poland) needs many other components; it is not just adding the benefits of the newest technologies on top of a well-organized and well-working economic system. I would say that it is most beneficial for the young people, meaning their education, chances for creating something new in the future. It influenced communication and information, so it is just a first step for us to be benefactors of the "tech" changes in the world.
WN: Do you consider yourself a technophile?
Walesa: Yes, I am a person interested in the development of technology. I use many different gadgets connected with computers; I use PCs, laptops and a Palm Pilot. I also use the Internet to visit websites, especially within Polish-language Internet. I usually go to political discussion groups and sites -- of course, as I use my real name, people never believe that they are chatting with me!
WN: What is your role at NuTech Solutions and what projects does the company have in Poland?
Walesa: As a board member, I will be advising the management of the company and I will take part in creating the policy and strategy of NuTech. In addition to attending each of the company's board meetings, I am committed to providing a great deal of my time to helping NuTech in its promotion and continued growth and development.
It is no secret that (the Polish) economy is now a global economy in which smaller companies can better compete worldwide. NuTech has effectively integrated its top scientific and technology teams in Poland and the United States for a collaborative environment. This would have been very difficult ten years ago. But now companies such as NuTech can lead the way for other American companies to take advantage of the favorable business climate in Poland today.
Відповіді
2002.06.20 | Горицвіт
Переклад
Лєх Валенса: борець за технологічну свободуКоли колишній президент Польщі Лєх Валенса заходить в чат, щоб поговорити про політику, людям важко повірити, що вони обговорюють питання з людиною, яка повалила комунізм у Східній Європі.
У телефонній розмові зі свого помешкання в Ґданьську колишній електрик на верфі, який став володарем Нобелівської премії миру, говорив про спроби уряду придушити технології чи використати їх для слідкування за персональними комунікаціями.
Син фермера, що народився в 1943 році, заснував у 1980 році рух "Солідарність", який був віссю поразки комунізму в усій Східній Європі. Був обраний президентом Польщі в 1990 р., залишаючись на цьому посту до 1995 року.
Недавно він став членом ради директорів NuTech Solutions, компанії з розробки програмного забезпечення, розташованої в Північній Кароліні. Компанію NuTech Solutions заснував народжений в Польщі Метью Міхалєвич (Matthew Michalewicz).
Запитання Wired News: Ви згадували в своїх інтерв'ю, що технологія допомогла повалити комунізм в Польщі. Чи не могли б ви деталізувати?
Валенса: Комунізм - це економічно і політично монопольна система. Система придушує приватні ініціативи, а 21 століття - це століття індивідуалізму і свободи. Розвиток технологій підтримує ці напрямки. Коли я боровся з комунізмом, ішов швидкий розвиток супутникового телебачення і мобільних телефонів, і комунізм, щоб вижити, мусів блокувати всі ці інформаційні пристрої.
Щоб контролювати вільний потік інформації, комуністи мусіли збільшити секретну поліцію в чотири рази. Поліція мала докласти величезних зусиль, щоб проконтролювати телеканали, які ви ловите, чи телефонні номери, по яких ви можете подзвонити. Таким чином технологія допомогла закінчити комунізм, принісши інформацію з-за кордону. Було можливо дістати новини з незалежних джерел: такі станції, як BBC і Голос Америки, були поза урядовим контролем. В 1950-их і 60-их роках комуністичний уряд за слухання цих станцій садив людей в тюрму.
Тільки міністерство внутрішніх справ могло видати дозвіл на володіння супутниковим телебаченням, і жоден, хто проти комунізму, не міг дістати дозволу. Будь-яке обладнання, пов'язане з обробкою інформації, навіть друкарські машинки і копіювальні машини, мали бути зареєстровані в поліції.
Дуже часто вони обшукували приміщення і конфісковували обладнання, навіть аудіоплівки. Одного разу в мене забрали 50 плівок - деякі патріотичні пісні, забаронені комуністами, інтерв'ю, передані BBC і Голосом Америки, а також західні пісні. Я досі їх не повернув.
З сьогоднішньої перспективи важко повірити, що такі речі справді відбувалися.
WN: Куба, наприклад, недавно заборонила вільний продаж комп'ютерів і регулюрно цензурує супутникове телебачення, інтернет і телефонні дзвінки на острів. Чи ви бачите паралелі між польським досвідом і тим, що зараз відбувається на Кубі?
Валенса: Куба - одна з останніх країн, де комунізм досі живий. Її система базується на такій же системі, яка була в Ценральній Європі 20 років тому. Звісно, Куба має переваги, тому що вона ближча до США. Але комунізм на Кубі закінчиться раніше чи пізніше, бо неможливо контролювати вільний потік інформації.
Комунізм не дає організаціям розвиватися, зупиняючи потік інформації. Система базується на поліції, прослуховуванні і вмикає найгірші характеристики людини. Комуністична система в основному закінчилася, і пан Кастро це знає. Але його вибір дуже обмежений - він може тільки застрелитися. Він доживає останні дні, а заміни йому, скоріше всього, не буде. Але комунізм зруйнував усі незалежні організації, так що буде цікаво подивитися, що трапиться.
WN: Чи вважаєте ви, що використання технологій, - таких як Carnivore чи Echelon, - демократичними урядами для слідкування за персональними комунікаціями є в чомусь гіршим ніж зусилля тоталітарних режимів у цьому напрямку?
( У цьому місці інтерв'ю телефон замовк, і знову подзвонити до Валенси не вдалося. Наступні відповіді були прислані електронною поштою.)
Валенса: Я вважаю, що будь-яке порушення приватності - не добре.
Але з іншого боку, уряд відповідальний за безпеку громадян країни, тому він має їх захищати. Я би розрізняв між слідкуванням за людьми взагалі і і використанням найновіших технологій для слідкування за конкретною людиною чи групою людей, які можуть бути загрозливими для суспільства - для суспільства, а не для уряду, як режиму. Я вірю, що це ситуація, з якою ми стикаємося в демократичних країнах; це те, що відрізняє її від комуністичного підходу.
WN: Чи виграла Польща від "технологічної революції"?
Валенса: Насправді "технологічна революція" не вплинула Польщу в такий спосіб, як на економіку США чи інших західних країн. По-перше, компанії високих технологій не стали настільки впливовими на нашому ринку, як в США. По-друге, розвиток Польщі потребує багатьох інших компонент, це не просто додавання вигод від найновіших технологій на вершину економічної системи, яка добре організована і добре працює. Я сказав би, що нові технології дають більше вигод молодим людям, мається на увазі освіта, шанси створити щось нове в майбутньому. Вони впливають на зв'язок і інформацію, так що це тільки перший крок для нас, щоб здобути вигоди від "технологічних" змін у світі.
WN: Чи вважаєте ви себе технофілом?
Валенса: Так, я цікавлюся розвитком технологій. Я використовую
багато різних пристроїв, з'єднаних з комп'ютером, користуюся персональними комп'ютерами, лептопами і Palm Pilot. Також я відвідую вебсайти, особливо в польськомовному інтернеті. Звичайно я ходжу по політичних дискусійних групах і сайтах. Звісно, оскільки я використовую своє справжнє ім'я, то люди ніколи не вірять, що чатяться зі мною!
WN: Яка ваша роль в NuTech Solutions і які проекти ваша компанія має в Польщі?
Валенса: Як член ради директорів, я буду консультувати менеджмент компанії і брати участь в розробці її політики і стратегії. Крім присутності на кожній зустрічі ради директорів, мені доручили приділяти значну частину часу, що допомогти компанії в її просуванні, постійному розвитку і зростанні.
Не секрет, що польська економіка є зараз глобальною економікою, де малі компанії можуть краще конкурувати по всьому світу. NuTech ефективно інтегрувала свої вищі наукові і технологічні команди в Польщі і США в середовище співробітництва. Це було б дуже важко десять років тому. Але сьогодні компанії, такі як NuTech, можуть показати шлях для інших американських компаній, як скористатися сьогоднішнім сприятливим бізнес-кліматом у Польщі.