10/27/2002 | Пастор Шляг

чи то до ведмедів та інших звірів політ-зоопарку.
Попри усі трагічні події у Росії, не слід забувати що набагато найважливішими для нас є той обридлий касетний шкандаль,
справа Гонгадзе та усі їхні наслідки.

Між тим, саме зараз на форумі сайту www.cripo.com.ua іде надзвичайно
цікава і для всього інтернет-загалу дискусія (наводиться нижче повністю), що розгорілася у відповідь на "idiot patriot, patsan i obman" by Peter Byrne. Дискусія довга але коротко суть її така:

Один дуже поважний пан, "dizzy", що дуже добре володіє англійською мовою, (але очевидно не Peter Byrne) впевнено проводить лінію
Мельниченко-Медведчук-Марчук-Москва/Кремль
у касетному скандалі.

Йому гаряче опонує інший пан "Алексей", що найкраще володіє російсько-службістською, і повністю переконаний у непричетності пп.
Медведчука та Марчука, натомість він із явним задоволенням
(але зауважимо без належного обгрунтування) намагається
прив"язати сюди прізвища пані Тимошенко та пана Ющенка.

По ходу дискусії викладається багато дуже цікавих фактів.

Коментарів в мене не буде, але є запитання: І що б ото воно усе означало? Чи можна вже зараз, з практичної точки зору, вважати що організаторами тейпгейту є Мельниченко-Медведчук-Марчук-Москва/Кремль?

Читайте, насолоджуйтесь прямо тут:
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Re: idiot patriot, patsan i obman
Автор: Алексей
Дата: 24-10-02 19:35

Mr. Peter Byrne!

The discussion on the subject you afford to "wash the wax" about was hot and hasn't finished yet actually. But it's temporary public conclusions were almost opposite to what you claim on point 1. I'll take your post to answer if you have nothing against it.

Peter> 1. melnychenko did not make the recordings

It is a temerity to announce such things with no other proove than two meaningless letters. Saying so, you show no sign of fact base in your sayings. You should have a lot of clear evidence against universally recognized version of records origin. But I see none of them. Would you be so kind to publish the evidence here? Or your purpose is not prooving something, but to casting the "records question" under doubt?

But before doing so, please explain the presence of major's voice on one of the tapes. Especially in the extract few minutes before his voice first heard to the end of record. Was it a malevolent assemblage? If no, then I'm looking forward to see your explanations. If yes, then 2. makes no sence (not assuming someone else edited records).

P> 2. melnychenko did not edit them

Had the records been edited? If "yes", then in what extracts exacly? What has been changed? Who has done it?

P> 3. kupchinsky and pritula have been willfully incompetent

I'm not sure about "wilfully", but tend to think that they are incompetent indeed.

P> 4. tomik is incompetent

Who [What] is "tomik"? Am I incompetent, asking this?

P> and wash the wax out of your ears!

Will do the best with your sincere help consisting of incontestable facts drawn up in a strong chain.

P> DON'T BELIEVE THE HYPE!

That slogan shows the source of my doubt to things you claim to be.

Before commenting your letters, I ask you [again] to publish its technical headers (A.K.A. RFC-822 Headers). This will make contents of letters to be considered seriously. You have shown the adresses already, this act of freewill will make no harm.

And finally, some political comments.

1).
P> This is because Vitya Med. Is behind the whole thing, and the idiot
P> has been working for him. The tapes were never meant to be made
P> public. They were to be used to hold “guarantor” by short hair
P> behind closed doors. The things went out of control, however – we
P> opened our site, and it made clear who is who.

Vitya Med is a known bastard and artful liar. Would you care to describe the scheme of his collaboration (or command) on major? Any clues? Who is who? Don't leave your words unjustified.

One of my clues is that Vitya's powers and available materials are even beyond compare. It is not his level.

2).
P> Dear Mr. Byrne, Mr. Pikhovshchyk told us on the air that the conversation
P> he had with Kuchma was real, he also told me privately that all references
P> to him on the tapes are correct, that he in fact was being (and presumably
P> still is) under SBU/Kuchma control.

If you oppose Mr. Kupchinsky in the point of transcribing records with Pikhovshchyk's presence, give some evidence of his wilfull incompetence in his transcribed extracts, please.

Best regards,
Alexey


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Re: idiot patriot, patsan i obman
Автор: Володимир
Дата: 24-10-02 22:38

Знаєте, хлопці, це Ви непогано придумали - по-англійському писати. Я так вважаю - аби не москальською. І що саме приємне – можна будь яку лайку на форумі викладати, модератор все однаково нічого затирати не ризикне. А якщо все-ж таки наважиться, раджу перейти на суахілі. Також мова, кажуть, цікава.


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Re: idiot patriot, patsan i obman
Автор: dizzy
Дата: 25-10-02 15:11

Peter

I have been following these tape discussions for some time, but your posting moved me to finally jump in (I am also procrastinating on a big project). My apologies to all for writing in English but my Ukrainian and Russian, though very good, are not nuanced enough for such a discussion.

Your contentions that Mel. neither made nor editted the recordings are unproven, but I agree. Melnychenko is too evasive, inconsistent and inherently untrustworthy (he'd never survive cross examination in a courtroom, whatever bull he repeats about wanting to go to trial) to be believed on anything.

Kupchinsky has been told about melnychenko's strange ties with APCO (see below) and he seems to wilfully ignore it. His reliance on any statement from Pikhovshek, who admits that he's a spook, to prove truth and authenticity is laughable. Perhaps it's from nostalgia, when the CIA via Karatnyckyj (and maybe Kupchinsky, that I don't know) were grooming Pihovshek in the early 1990s, little knowing he's was being groomed on the other side as well. (Karatnycky's CIA connection became common knowledge in the early nineties, when one of the big newsmagazines wrote how the CIA funneled money to Polish Solidarity through the AFL-CIO, with Karatnycky as the point man. Pihovshek worked as Karatnycky's AFL-CIO local rep in the early 1990s, too) For an indication of where all this grooming (read $$$) went, see P. show off his grand castle in this month's issue of Dom i Interier. In any case, proof of one episode's authenticity proves nothing about other episodes.

I agree with Alexi -- I don't know who Tomik is either.

How does Lutiy know that the tapes were never meant to be made public? And does he mean all of the tapes, including or excluding the Gongadze recordings? And what exactly went out of control?

I think that Lutiy is correct about Vitya's -- and, hence, probably Marchuk's -- involvement with Melnychenko (though whether they are all soldiers in a foreign war or generals in their own is still unclear to me). Proof, I don't have, but there is plenty of circumstantial evidence, namely:

1. Melnychenko's own statement on Radio Liberty in the winter of 2001, to wit: Marchuk is the only honorable person in the Kuchma regime. This about a person who had betrayed his allies and voters in the 1999 campaign, and went to work for Kuchma (hmm, maybe the tapes helped him get the job instead of getting crushed by Kuchma when the election was over? Just speculating)

2. In an interview with Yulia Mostova in the autumn of 2001, Melnychenko confirmed that his lawyer is being paid via Medvedchuk (probably via APCO). He also admitted this to someone I know in New York.

3. According to one person who listened to and compared the Gongadze recordings (The Moroz tapes and some other recordings, presumably the ones that went to IMI), in a dialogue in which Kuchma is talking to Dercacz about Gongadze's articles, hisphrase to the effect of: "Marchuk has been showing them to me" was snipped out. Perhaps you could confirm if this is the case.

4. In October 2001, when Yushchenko went to the US, Melnychenko showed up at one of his speeches. If you recall, there was the whole controversy about whether the two of them shook hands or not. Melnychenko was there with Kempton Jenkins and Barry Buford, of the PR firm APCO, generally known to Washington insiders (insiders on Ukraine issues) as Vitya's US PR firm. Very soon afterwards, Buford approached a leading member of the Ukrainian diaspora, and offered to set up a meeting with Melnychenko, promising that he would reveal much to make the diaspora change its positive thinking about Yushchenko. What is interesting is that once it got back to Washington that people in Kiev had figured out the APCO-Mel-Med connection (this happened rather quickly), Buford didn't return diaspora phone calls and even made vaguely threatening statements to the diaspora person at issue.

I can't imagine what more proof could be needed to prove a Mel-Med- (and probably Marchuk) connection. It doesn't prove that Med or Marchuk were the brains and brawn behind the recordings. But there is no one else in the Ukrainian political establishment about whom even such circumstantial connection with Mel. exists.

Also, one thing about which all you tape discussants don't know but may interest you is that the headless corpse found in Tarashcha had no appendix. Gongadze did.

I welcome comments and criticism brought in the spirit of pursuing truth. I have no ax to grind and am not working for anyone remotely capable of making me write something that I don't believe.


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Re: idiot patriot, patsan i obman
Автор: dizzy
Дата: 25-10-02 18:14

The person said she listened to it herself. I don't know if her saying "the part about Marchuk was snipped out" meant that only the phrase was snipped out of a Moroz episode, or that the entire episode was left out of Moroz's compilation.

In any case, what is important is that there is an episode in which Marchuk is shown to be informing Kuchma about Gongadze, and this episode was NOT in the Moroz tapes and it further confirms my contention that Marchuk is mixed up in this.


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Another reason why Marchuk...
Автор: dizzy
Дата: 25-10-02 18:34

Another reason for suspecting Marchuk is his connection with setting up Ukr. Pravda in March, 2000. No one denies that Ukr. Pravda's first sponsor was a so-called Petrovich and that Petrovich was connected somehow with Marchuk. Petrovich and Gongadze evidently worked happily enough together until Prytula, without G's knowledge and contrary to his direct orders [not to print bad things about Marchuk], reprinted Korobova's vulgar screed about his wife, Laryssa Ivshyna. That was on May 16th. Soon afterwards, Petrovich stopped sponsoring Ukr. Pravda.

If I recall correctly, the date of the Kuchma-Derkach conversation in which Kuchma says that Marchuk has been showing him Gongadze articles was some time in June.

This makes perfect sense because who better than Marchuk even knew that Ukr.Pravda existed at THAT time -- June, 1986. NO one else did. I first found the site by accident at the end of April and anyone I told about it, heard it from me first. It had a tiny, tiny, tiny readership. Also recall -- Marchuk was the "first Ukrainian internet politician" when he was still in opposition and, I'm sure, the first Ukrainian politican to recognize the internet's power.

I would not be absolutely surprised if Prytula were mixed up in this too.


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2 dizzy
Автор: Алексей
Дата: 25-10-02 20:55

dizzy,

while waiting for Peter to collect his thoughts and clues, I'll try to break into your conversation with the "know-it-all".

The hypothesis about major Mykola Melnychenko (MMM hereinafter) absolute incompetence has the right to exist according to his strange and inconsequent actions. However, it is still unprooved and probably will be unprooved before the trial (most likely). And all the speculations about him and his contacts, past and presend make no
headway in the case. And the purpose of speculations appearing slows down and sabotages any possible headway. Like it or not, but we are just secondary spectators. The problem is, that MMM also shows less desire in getting to the trial than some observers do.

The fact of MMM contacts with APCO, supporting V.Med. in USA, seems suspicious, but the strangest thing in it, that noone wanted to hide this contacts. If V.M. were to control MMM, his interest is to conceal this. And mainly to conceal this from Kuchma. So the ignoring behaviour of Kupchinsky could be explained.

I do not get the point of blaming Pihovschek in collaboration with CIA/KGB. A lot of people know he was (and still is) KGB agent from late 80-th. But it does not relates the subject.

d> In any case, proof of one episode's authenticity proves nothing about other episodes.

And also the proof of one episode's non-authenticity proves nothing about other episodes.

d> How does Lutiy know that the tapes were never meant to be made
d> public? And does he mean all of the tapes, including or excluding
d> the Gongadze recordings? And what exactly went out of control?

The version, that tapes were made for blackmailing Kuchma&Co. by V.Medvedchuk is nonsence. V.M. was never (and even now) so strong to blackmain "guarantor". He is the king, but not the emperor. But Marchuk's involvement looks more credible...

The proof is the thing all sides require. Now only one side has some proof. And only two justifications the other side offers are:
1). the records are fake (saying about WAV nevertheless);
2). major is agent of whatever they like (world Zionism remains oddly uninvolved :-) ).

I'll comment your circumstantial evidence, they are interesting to read and think about.

d> 1. Melnychenko's own statement on Radio Liberty in the winter of
d> 2001, to wit: Marchuk is the only honorable person in the Kuchma
d> regime. This about a person who had betrayed his allies and voters
d> in the 1999 campaign, and went to work for Kuchma (hmm, maybe the
d> tapes helped him get the job instead of getting crushed by Kuchma
d> when the election was over? Just speculating)

Accidentally today I answered to Сергей Романовский about the Marchuk's person. I think he is the most post-worth person among other Kuchma's bootlickers.

d> 2. In an interview with Yulia Mostova in the autumn of 2001,
d> Melnychenko confirmed that his lawyer is being paid via Medvedchuk
d> (probably via APCO). He also admitted this to someone I know in New
d> York.

I am ashamed to confess, but the article slipped from my attention. I haven't found it on "ZN" site. Could you please give me a link to the article. However, I assume this could be truth. And cannot find explanation other, than as attempt of V.M. (Kuchma's favourite minion now) to sabotage the case at any price.

d> 3. According to one person who listened to and compared the
d> Gongadze recordings (The Moroz tapes and some other recordings,
d> presumably the ones that went to IMI), in a dialogue in which
d> Kuchma is talking to Dercacz about Gongadze's articles, hisphrase
d> to the effect of: "Marchuk has been showing them to me" was snipped
d> out. Perhaps you could confirm if this is the case.

As the phrase was not cut off from DMR, and the DMR was not destroyed (and even published) I assume editing of Moroz tape to avoid blaming Marchuk only once. If they were to hide his presence, they had destroyed the DMR already (or not publish it at least).

d> 4. ...

The threats were not embodied. So it's just political designing. If not, please explain what actions of MMM gave trump cards to V.M.

d> But there is no one else in the Ukrainian political establishment
d> about whom even such circumstantial connection with Mel. exists.

Two most combined with MMM persons are Y.V.Tymoshenko (having no public contacts!) and Marchuk (his reputation compels to think so).

d> the headless corpse found in Tarashcha had no appendix. Gongadze did.

The most interesting think i read here is this. Do you mean body in the morgue? Or original body, found IN GROUND? And how will you explain DNA expertises?

Looking forward to your answer,
Alexey


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Re: 2 dizzy
Автор: dizzy
Дата: 26-10-02 01:51

dizzy,

while waiting for Peter to collect his thoughts and clues, I'll try to break into your conversation with the "know-it-all".

Alexei. Like, AST, your English is very good, but I suspect you are working with a thesaurus and your choice of synonyms is not always apropos. This makes it difficult to understand the nuances of your writings. Please respond in Ukrainian or Russian, however you are more comfortable.

The hypothesis about major Mykola Melnychenko (MMM hereinafter) absolute incompetence has the right to exist according to his strange and inconsequent actions. However, it is still unprooved and probably will be unprooved before the trial (most likely).

Alexsei, if you believe there is going to be a trial, with Melnychenko as a witness, I think that you are sadly misinformed. I know the American legal system well. As I wrote earlier, he would never survive cross-examination by a competent defense lawyer (which we can assume, Medvedchuk would find for Kuchma for a US trial). . Mel's bravo talk about filing lawsuits against Kuchma are laughable. The same reason why Myroslava can't file a lawsuit. They need information about Kuchma, Kravchenko etc. property in the US to do so, and thus far no one (including Lazarenko as far as I know) has come forward with that critical information. I read Lutiy's articles about how easy it would be to sue Kuchma in the US. He is either a propagandist or incompetent. It is not that easy.

And all the speculations about him and his contacts, past and presend make no
headway in the case. And the purpose of speculations appearing slows down and sabotages any possible headway. Like it or not, but we are just secondary spectators. The problem is, that MMM also shows less desire in getting to the trial than some observers do.

Again, Alexei, write in your native language becaue I am not sure of what you mean to say here. Speculations about past and present contacts are all we have to go on, if we're talking about evidence. Being secondary spectators -- indeed we are. But your comment dismisses us as if we have nothing reasonable to say.

The fact of MMM contacts with APCO, supporting V.Med. in USA, seems suspicious, but the strangest thing in it, that noone wanted to hide this contacts.

Alexsi, I made it clear in my posting that as soon as it became evident that Med. was connnected to the boys at APCO and that they were connected with Mel., they shut down all efforts to make contact with the diaspora person. In my opinion, they did not believe that anyone present at the Yushchenko speech in Washington would make the connection( and no one did). I know this because I know exactly how that "connection" was made. They blew it and they knew it and that's why they backed off.

If V.M. were to control MMM, his interest is to conceal this. And mainly to conceal this from Kuchma.


Gee, Alexsei. Your English improves with every sentence.

Agreed. But we don't know what Kuchma knows and how he knows it. We do know that after the APCO connection became known (largely through the Kiev grapevine) Kuchma cooled to Med. So much, that Med. had almost no administrative resource for the elections.

So the ignoring behaviour of Kupchinsky could be explained.

Sorry, Alexei. I don't understand the connection between concealing from Kuchma and ignoring the behavior of Kupchinsky. Please spell this out for me.

I do not get the point of blaming Pihovschek in collaboration with CIA/KGB. A lot of people know he was (and still is) KGB agent from late 80-th. But it does not relates the subject.

No, that was a cheap shot at Pihovshek but intended to indicate that I don't consider him a source of truth and authenticty -- as Kupchinsky evidently considers him. For that matter, I don't consider Karatnycky a source of truth and authenticity either. His and Kupchisky's lack of interest in any evidence casting doubt of the recording's authenticity is proof enough of their lack of interest in the truth.

But. from all I have learned from following this forum I will say this: Kuchma ordered bad things done to Gongadze. If poor Gia died as a result of what was only intended to be a fright, Kuchma bears responsibility for that, too. IN the US, that's called felony murder. I don't think that Ukraine has a similar criminal category, but morally it's the same. He is guilty of something. Unfortunately, all the assholes involved in this matter are more interested in grinding their axes than in finding the truth (whew, I hope you kept up with me for that tirade).



d> In any case, proof of one episode's authenticity proves nothing about other episodes.

And also the proof of one episode's non-authenticity proves nothing about other episodes.

I agree, though I'm not sure AST would.

d> How does Lutiy know that the tapes were never meant to be made
d> public? And does he mean all of the tapes, including or excluding
d> the Gongadze recordings? And what exactly went out of control?

The version, that tapes were made for blackmailing Kuchma&Co. by V.Medvedchuk is nonsence. V.M. was never (and even now) so strong to blackmain "guarantor". He is the king, but not the emperor. But Marchuk's involvement looks more credible...

That is debatable. Perhaps Marchuk started the whole thing on his own and then brought Med. in later. Juding by who is benefitting from this the most, I think the Russians were behind the whole thing. What do you think, Alexei?

The proof is the thing all sides require. Now only one side has some proof.

Who?? Which side has proof?

And only two justifications the other side offers are:
1). the records are fake (saying about WAV nevertheless);
2). major is agent of whatever they like (world Zionism remains oddly uninvolved :-) ).

Sorry, Alexei, you lost me on that one. The phrase "World Zionist" (despite your smiley emoticons) sends up red flags (not necessarily communist) in my brain, suggesting paranoid conspiracies. I see very little evidence that Israel has benefited at all from this but your suggestions of such, even as a joke, makes me wonder....

I'll comment your circumstantial evidence, they are interesting to read and think about.

d> 1. Melnychenko's own statement on Radio Liberty in the winter of
d> 2001, to wit: Marchuk is the only honorable person in the Kuchma
d> regime. This about a person who had betrayed his allies and voters
d> in the 1999 campaign, and went to work for Kuchma (hmm, maybe the
d> tapes helped him get the job instead of getting crushed by Kuchma
d> when the election was over? Just speculating)

Accidentally today I answered to Сергей Романовский about the Marchuk's person. I think he is the most post-worth person among other Kuchma's bootlickers.

Alexsei, your English, again, is good. But "post-worth" is idiomatically incomprehensible. I have no idea what you mean here. Write native.

d> 2. In an interview with Yulia Mostova in the autumn of 2001,
d> Melnychenko confirmed that his lawyer is being paid via Medvedchuk
d> (probably via APCO). He also admitted this to someone I know in New
d> York.

I am ashamed to confess, but the article slipped from my attention. I haven't found it on "ZN" site. Could you please give me a link to the article. However, I assume this could be truth. And cannot find explanation other, than as attempt of V.M. (Kuchma's favourite minion now) to sabotage the case at any price.

Alexei, the comment happened in the context of a ZT interview with Moroz. Mostova gave the information in the context of framing a question to Moroz, saying: we know that Melnychenk'o's lawyer is being paid by Medvedchuk's people and what have you to say about that? Moroz responded that he had nothing to say about thatand then went on to talk about someting else. I wish that I could easily give you a Web citation but I think that if you do a reasonably detailed search on ZT's web site. you'll find it. If not, let me know and I will make the effort to help you.

d> 3. According to one person who listened to and compared the
d> Gongadze recordings (The Moroz tapes and some other recordings,
d> presumably the ones that went to IMI), in a dialogue in which
d> Kuchma is talking to Dercacz about Gongadze's articles, hisphrase
d> to the effect of: "Marchuk has been showing them to me" was snipped
d> out. Perhaps you could confirm if this is the case.

As the phrase was not cut off from DMR, and the DMR was not destroyed (and even published) I assume editing of Moroz tape to avoid blaming Marchuk only once. If they were to hide his presence, they had destroyed the DMR already (or not publish it at least).

Aleksei:AST says that this recording doesn't exist and that I am misinforned. Since I am not an expert about the content of the recordings, I can't dispute that. See my posting to him;

d> 4. ...

The threats were not embodied. So it's just political designing. If not, please explain what actions of MMM gave trump cards to V.M.

Alexei, write native. I don't undersand thisl

is no one else in the Ukrainian political establishment
d> about whom even such circumstantial connection with Mel. exists.

Two most combined with MMM persons are Y.V.Tymoshenko (having no public contacts!)

If you have no public contacts to cite, what are you talking about? I heard this from SBU people in the autumn of 2000, with not even a touch of evidence. I don't trust Tymoshenko at all and feel sorry for the dumb old guys (like Khmara and Lukianekno) taken in by her braid and charm ( of which she has much). Unless given at least something resembling the circumstantial evidence I have given of a Med-Marchuk connection, hollow words implicating Tymoshenko convince me not at all.

and Marchuk (his reputation compels to think so).

d> the headless corpse found in Tarashcha had no appendix. Gongadze did.

The most interesting think i read here is this. Do you mean body in the morgue? Or original body, found IN GROUND? And how will you explain DNA expertises?

Geez, I thought you people were well informed. The body found in the ground in Tarashcha had no appendix. Gongadze, as far as everyone who knew his medical history and abdominal scars, had his appendix. This is the testimony (albeit not sworn) of one of group of peole who went to Tarashcha the day the corpse was "discovered". As for the morgue, have you seen the photos of the corpse???? I have, and they depict a body, not easily recognizable, but a body, with a torso, legs and one arm. What was in the morge when Miroslava identifiedit (read the new reports) was a pile of loose bones and a bundle of soft tisuue. From the time the corpse was revealed in mid-November to the time that Miroslava saw the remains, less than a month had passed. All you experts out there, maybe you wil tell me how a corpse became a pile of bones in one month?

As for the genetics, we can discuss this at length, but the German testing of the remains that Prytula claimed to have taken from Tarashcha were NEGATIVE. They were not Gongadze.

That does not in any way sggest that G is not dead. I think he is. But I don't think the Tarascha corpse is his.



Is that complicated enough for all of you ASTs, and Alexeis and Peters?


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Re: idiot patriot, patsan i obman
Автор: dizzy
Дата: 26-10-02 02:09

Yes, I read the entire Ажур report, and also their novel "Pazsledovadel", which was interesting in Kuntiskin trying to implicte Mirimsky. But if Marchuk is reading all this,, i certainlly can't meet with you


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Re: idiot patriot, patsan i obman
Автор: АST
Дата: 26-10-02 02:16


dizzy сказал:
> But if Marchuk is reading all this,, i
> certainlly can't meet with you

Не розумію вашої логіки!


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Я вам тут відповім
Автор: АST
Дата: 26-10-02 02:32



Geez, I thought you people were well informed. The body found in the ground in Tarashcha had no appendix. Gongadze, as far as everyone who knew his medical history and abdominal scars, had his appendix. This is the testimony (albeit not sworn) of one of group of peole who went to Tarashcha the day the corpse was "discovered". As for the morgue, have you seen the photos of the corpse???? I have, and they depict a body, not easily recognizable, but a body, with a torso, legs and one arm. What was in the morge when Miroslava identifiedit (read the new reports) was a pile of loose bones and a bundle of soft tisuue. From the time the corpse was revealed in mid-November to the time that Miroslava saw the remains, less than a month had passed. All you experts out there, maybe you wil tell me how a corpse became a pile of bones in one month?

Те, що тіла зараз не їснує є результатом багаточисельних його розтинів.
Лише Воротинцев повністю знищив обидві руки, вилучив внутрішні органи та ін...
100% це те саме тіло.
Запитайте в Воротинцева. Експертизу в Києві робив його знайомий, вони зізвонювались і обговорювали деталі зроблених їм раніше розтинів. Вони говорили про те саме тіло.
Дивне вивезення тіла з моргу так само як і бажання Притули взяти з собою рештки цього тіла було абсолютно НЕПРОГНОЗОВАНИМ і ВИПАДКОВИМ розвитком подій 15 листопада. Лише потім цим хтось розумно скористався.
Негативний результат експертизи в Мюнхені є наслідком причетності до неї тієї самої компанії людей, що переховували в той час Мельниченко.


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Re: idiot patriot, patsan i obman
Автор: tarkoff
Дата: 26-10-02 05:17

Listen, guys! Якщо хочете зустрітися, то возьмите и меня с собой! AST knows how to find out me! Я, вроде, в этой истории не самый лишний! Sapienti sat!


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Re: idiot patriot, patsan i obman
Автор: Alеx
Дата: 26-10-02 08:50

>>>Я думаю, нам багато легше зустрітись і я можу відповісти на всі ваші запитання.

А можно результаты встречи, если таковая состоится, выложить на этот форум? Я ничего не писал в этом форуме, но читать аргументированные позиции интересно. Не уходите из эфира, в общем.


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2 dizzy #2
Автор: Алексей
Дата: 26-10-02 11:40

d> I suspect you are working with a thesaurus and your choice of
d> synonyms is not always apropos. This makes it difficult to
d> understand the nuances of your writings. Please respond in
d> Ukrainian or Russian, however you are more comfortable.

You are right.

d> Alexsei, if you believe there is going to be a trial, with Melnychenko
d> as a witness, I think that you are sadly misinformed.

И все-таки суд будет. И у меня столько-же оснований утверждать это,
сколько и у вас утверждать обратное.

d> I know the American legal system well. As I wrote earlier, he would never survive
d> cross-examination by a competent defense lawyer (which we can assume,
d> Medvedchuk would find for Kuchma for a US trial).

Вы так считаете? Опять же, есть только один способ проверить. И то что
он не сможет "survive cross-examination" разве значит, что суда не
будет? Вы что утверждаете, что майор сознательно саботирует будущий
суд и свое в нем будущее участие? Это ваше мнение, или факт?

Но что правда, так это то, что не найдя собственности Кучмы в США ни майор ни Ельяшкевич ни Мирослава ничего не смогут сделать.

d> Mel's bravo talk about filing lawsuits against Kuchma are laughable.

Я думал вы осведомлены лучше. Как насчет иска майора к Азарову и Кучме
"о защите чести ..."? Адвокатом Мельниченко будет Федур.

d> The same reason why Myroslava can't file a lawsuit.
d> They need information about Kuchma, Kravchenko etc. property in the US to
d> do so, and thus far no one (including Lazarenko as far as I know) has come
d> forward with that critical information.

Да, это проблема. Но дело будет вестись в украинском суде. Уже есть 2
дела: 1). Василенко; 2). вышеназванное.

d> Lutiy is either a propagandist or incompetent. It is not that easy.

Почти согласен.

d> Speculations about past and present contacts are all we have to go on,
d> if we're talking about evidence.

О каких доказательствах можно говорить тут, на форуме? Я, признаю, не
очень понятно выразил то, что имел в виду. Так вот, я считаю все эти
слухи и спекуляции в СМИ и тут, на форуме, абсолютно ненужными. И
даже тормозящими продвижение дела.

d> Being secondary spectators -- indeed we are. But your comment
d> dismisses us as if we have nothing reasonable to say.

А что мы можем сказать, кроме как намекнуть на связь кого-то с кем-то?
Что-то изменится, если я признаю, что считаю майора Мел. протеже
Марчука? Высказывая тут мнения, многие* забываются. Тут вот один
"эксперт" вещал, что он Эксперт. Я ему и сказал - беги на ул.
Резницкую, помоги Генпрокуратуре, а не разводи слухи и спекуляции.

*иногда и я.

d> Alexsi, I made it clear in my posting that as soon as it became evident
d> that Med. was connnected to the boys at APCO and that they were connected
d> with Mel., they shut down all efforts to make contact with the diaspora
d> person.

Разве АПКО работает только на Медведчука? Я допускаю, что Медведчук
пытался каким-то образом получить влияние на майора. Через АПКО, через
адвоката, - без разницы. Ему ВЫГОДНО саботировать дело. Но я не вижу
ни одного факта, показывающего, что майор ПОД РУКОВОДСТВОМ Медведчука
это дело САБОТИРУЕТ.

d> Gee, Alexsei. Your English improves with every sentence.

:-) Вашими заботами товарищ...

d> But we don't know what Kuchma knows and how he knows it.
d> We do know that after the APCO connection became known (largely
d> through the Kiev grapevine) Kuchma cooled to Med. So much, that
d> Med. had almost no administrative resource for the elections.

У СДПУ(о) были очень серьезные рычаги влияния. Огромное количество
чиновников администраций всех уровней были приняты в СДПУ(о)
незадолго до выборов. СДПУ(о) взяла на 1-2% больше голосов, чем
должна была. Их "вытянул" из 4% Центризбирком.

А тот факт, что сейчас Витя - глава Администрации, показывает, что (в
худшем случае) Кучма понял, что попытки Медведчука "выйти на майора" были
сделаны исключительно с целью затормозить разглашение пленок. Такое мое
мнение.

d> Sorry, Alexei. I don't understand the connection between concealing
d> from Kuchma and ignoring the behavior of Kupchinsky. Please spell this
d> out for me.

Игнорирование Купчинским всех этих "знаковых" событий можно объяснить
как тем, что он знает, что Медведчук на самом деле не контролирует
майора, так и тем, что что не верит сомнительным "фактам".

Никто же не говорит, что Ющеко продался СДПУ(о), если его видели рядом
с Кравчуком...

d> No, that was a cheap shot at Pihovshek but intended to indicate
d> that I don't consider him a source of truth and authenticty -- as
d> Kupchinsky evidently considers him. For that matter, I don't consider
d> Karatnycky a source of truth and authenticity either. His and Kupchisky's
d> lack of interest in any evidence casting doubt of the recording's
d> authenticity is proof enough of their lack of interest in the truth.

Источники правды в этом деле, как бы того не хотели всякие спекулянты,
не они. Не Купчинский и не Притула. И не Лютый. Они не сделали ничего
полезного кроме подогрева общественного мнения. И не сделают, ибо
они (и я, и вы, и "фоноскоп") - вторичны. И наше дело, по большому
счету, не спекулировать своими гипотезами. И не убеждать друг друга в
правильности только своих умозаключений.

d> But. from all I have learned from following this forum I will say
d> this: Kuchma ordered bad things done to Gongadze. If poor Gia died
d> as a result of what was only intended to be a fright, Kuchma bears
d> responsibility for that, too. IN the US, that's called felony murder.
d> I don't think that Ukraine has a similar criminal category, but morally
d> it's the same. He is guilty of something. Unfortunately, all the assholes
d> involved in this matter are more interested in grinding their axes than in
d> finding the truth (whew, I hope you kept up with me for that tirade).

I've got your point. И я согласен. Но не полагайтесь на форум, как на
истину в первой инстанции. И я всегда считал, что большинство
разговоров вокруг этого дела, большинство "аналитики" - имеют цель
запутать общество.

d> I agree, though I'm not sure AST would.

I'm sure he would not.

d> That is debatable. Perhaps Marchuk started the whole thing on his
d> own and then brought Med. in later.

Для чего? Марчук будет делать что-то если ему это выгодно. Я его
выгоды не вижу. И его косвенной поддержки майора или руководства его
действиями тоже.

d> Juding by who is benefitting from this the most, I think the
d> Russians were behind the whole thing. What do you think, Alexei?

Согласен, их выгода "в деле" очень велика. Но кроме подъема Медведчука
и их политических и экономических дивидентов нет никаких намеков на их
участие в деле.

d> Who?? Which side has proof?

Майор. У него есть записи. Они (по крайней мере их часть) признаны
аутентичными. Это не доказательство?!

d> Sorry, Alexei, you lost me on that one.
d> The phrase "World Zionist" (despite your smiley emoticons) sends up red
d> flags (not necessarily communist) in my brain, suggesting paranoid conspiracies.
d> I see very little evidence that Israel has benefited at all from this but your
d> suggestions of such, even as a joke, makes me wonder....

Имелось в виду, что единственными аргументами Кучмы&Ко. являются
такие: 1). пленки - подделка (по записям из Интернета);
2). майор - предатель и агент какой-нибудь разведки (неважно какой,
народ на это "поведется").

d> "post-worth"

I left you a clue where to find my idea.
Из всех теперешних силовиков именно Марчук наиболее достоен своего
поста. Так считает много людей, поэтому ничего странного в том, что
так считает майор нет.

d> Mostova gave the information in the context of framing a question to Moroz,
d> saying: we know that Melnychenk'o's lawyer is being paid by Medvedchuk's
d> people and what have you to say about that?

Ничего не нашел. Потрудесь процитировать. Мне интересны детали.
Признаюсь, я слышал эту информацию от многих людей, но нигде не видел
ее подтверждения, хотя-бы и в СМИ.

a> please explain what actions of MMM gave trump cards to V.M.

Какие действия майора Мельниченко могут быть однозначно выгодны Медведчуку?

d> If you have no public contacts to cite, what are you talking about?

Ни разу не было оглашено о контактах Тимошенко и Мельниченко. Она во
всю использует его записи (транскрипты с "Правды"), но факты контактов
между ними, даже если они и есть, не разглашаются.

d> Geez, I thought you people were well informed. The body found in
d> the ground in Tarashcha had no appendix. Gongadze, as far as
d> everyone who knew his medical history and abdominal scars, had his
d> appendix.

Какое тело вы имеете в виду? Извлеченно из земли или находящееся в
морге? Насколько я вас понял, это могут быть РАЗНЫЕ тела. И
подозреваю, что так оно и есть.

d> This is the testimony (albeit not sworn) of one of group
d> of peole who went to Tarashcha the day the corpse was "discovered".
d> As for the morgue, have you seen the photos of the corpse???? I
d> have, and they depict a body, not easily recognizable, but a body,
d> with a torso, legs and one arm.

А вторая рука?

d> What was in the morge when Miroslava identifiedit (read the new
d> reports) was a pile of loose bones and a bundle of soft tisuue.
d> From the time the corpse was
d> revealed in mid-November to the time that Miroslava saw the
d> remains, less than a month had passed. All you experts out there,
d> maybe you wil tell me how a corpse became a pile of bones in one month?

Зачем ей показывали кости, если есть тело, без головы и руки, как вы
утверждаете?

d> As for the genetics, we can discuss this at length, but the German
d> testing of the remains that Prytula claimed to have taken from
d> Tarashcha were NEGATIVE. They were not Gongadze.

Тут я Притулу не пойму. Она не должна была брать С ТОГО тела
"материал". Если она так сделала, то очень холоднокровно оценила
ситуацию. Или врет.

d> That does not in any way suggest that G is not dead. I think he is.
d> But I don't think the Tarascha corpse is his.

Я могу предположить, что вы намекаете, что тело найденное в Тараще НЕ
БЫЛО ТЕЛОМ ГОНГАДЗЕ, но тело в морге - ЭТО ТЕЛО ГОНГАДЗЕ. Так?

---------------------
P.S. Peter - провокатор :-))


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Re: idiot patriot, patsan i obman
Автор: dizzy
Дата: 26-10-02 11:58

But if Marchuk is reading all this,, i
> certainlly can't meet with you

Не розумію вашої логіки!

Most respected AST, if I am quite obviously hidng my identity behind a dumb name like Dizzy, and writing long and detailed arguments contending that Marchuk is behind Ukraine's worst scandal, do you think that I want Marchuk to know who I am??? If I was that brave, I'd use my real name to begin with. I am very smart, but I am not very brave.

Sorry, for now at least, no meetings.


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Re: 2 dizzy #2
Автор: dizzy
Дата: 26-10-02 13:23

И все-таки суд будет. И у меня столько-же оснований утверждать это,
сколько и у вас утверждать обратное.

d> I know the American legal system well. As I wrote earlier, he would never survive
d> cross-examination by a competent defense lawyer (which we can assume,
d> Medvedchuk would find for Kuchma for a US trial).

Вы так считаете? Опять же, есть только один способ проверить. И то что
он не сможет "survive cross-examination" разве значит, что суда не
будет? Вы что утверждаете, что майор сознательно саботирует будущий
суд и свое в нем будущее участие? Это ваше мнение, или факт?

I don't even pretend to know what Mel. is doing or thinking. But it is my opinion that if he is the star witness, providing the key evidence, he will lose because he will not survive cross examination.

Но что правда, так это то, что не найдя собственности Кучмы в США ни майор ни Ельяшкевич ни Мирослава ничего не смогут сделать.

d> Mel's bravo talk about filing lawsuits against Kuchma are laughable.

Я думал вы осведомлены лучше. Как насчет иска майора к Азарову и Кучме
"о защите чести ..."? Адвокатом Мельниченко будет Федур.

If Mel's lawyer is Fedur, this is doomed to failure. Rarely have I seen a less competent attorney. The fact that he has become a "legal star" in Ukraine just goes to prove that Ukrainian journalists can't tell a good lawyer from a bad one. When Fedur opens his mouth, good lawyers groan. Personally, I think he is working for the procuracy, to deliberately lose cases. No, Alexei, that is not a fact, it is my opinion. But I have been watching him closely for some time.

d> The same reason why Myroslava can't file a lawsuit.
d> They need information about Kuchma, Kravchenko etc. property in the US to
d> do so, and thus far no one (including Lazarenko as far as I know) has come
d> forward with that critical information.

Да, это проблема.

That is a BIG problem! In fact, they don't get any bigger.

ло будет вестись в украинском суде. Уже есть 2
дела: 1). Василенко; 2). вышеназванное.

d> Lutiy is either a propagandist or incompetent. It is not that easy.

Почти согласен.

d> Speculations about past and present contacts are all we have to go on,
d> if we're talking about evidence.

О каких доказательствах можно говорить тут, на форуме? Я, признаю, не
очень понятно выразил то, что имел в виду. Так вот, я считаю все эти
слухи и спекуляции в СМИ и тут, на форуме, абсолютно ненужными. И
даже тормозящими продвижение дела.

If that is your opinion, why do you bother taking part in the discussions? Frankly, I don't see how any forum discussions can
тормозящими продвижение дела

d> Being secondary spectators -- indeed we are. But your comment
d> dismisses us as if we have nothing reasonable to say.

А что мы можем сказать, кроме как намекнуть на связь кого-то с кем-то?
Что-то изменится, если я признаю, что считаю майора Мел. протеже
Марчука? Высказывая тут мнения, многие* забываются. Тут вот один
"эксперт" вещал, что он Эксперт. Я ему и сказал - беги на ул.
Резницкую, помоги Генпрокуратуре, а не разводи слухи и спекуляции.

Alexei. When I speculate and cite rumors, I say so. My intention is not to obscure but enlight. The only reason why I decided to take part in this discussion is because I have been researching, thinking and talking about these things only in small circles, I have some information/speculation, and decided its time to give it some glasnost. Do with it and think of it what you will.

*иногда и я.

d> Alexsi, I made it clear in my posting that as soon as it became evident
d> that Med. was connnected to the boys at APCO and that they were connected
d> with Mel., they shut down all efforts to make contact with the diaspora
d> person.

Разве АПКО работает только на Медведчука? Я допускаю, что Медведчук
пытался каким-то образом получить влияние на майора. Через АПКО, через
адвоката, - без разницы. Ему ВЫГОДНО саботировать дело. Но я не вижу
ни одного факта, показывающего, что майор ПОД РУКОВОДСТВОМ Медведчука
это дело САБОТИРУЕТ.

Touche. It is entirely possible that Medvedchuk paid for Mel's lawyer with the intention of influencing him and helping him (I wouldn't use the word sabotage in this context) fight the subpeona requiring him to hand over the recordings to the grand jury and whoever else in the US government wanted them (Mel. is so vague about his US legal matters, I'm not sure about exactly what anyone wanted from him).

d> Gee, Alexsei. Your English improves with every sentence.

:-) Вашими заботами товарищ...

d> But we don't know what Kuchma knows and how he knows it.
d> We do know that after the APCO connection became known (largely
d> through the Kiev grapevine) Kuchma cooled to Med. So much, that
d> Med. had almost no administrative resource for the elections.

У СДПУ(о) были очень серьезные рычаги влияния. Огромное количество
чиновников администраций всех уровней были приняты в СДПУ(о)
незадолго до выборов. СДПУ(о) взяла на 1-2% больше голосов, чем
должна была. Их "вытянул" из 4% Центризбирком.

That SDPUo had its own administrative resources, I don't doubt. But I don't believe that they got any extra from the president. That Medvedchuk fell out of favor with the Garant last autumn is, I believe, common knowledge. correct me if I am wrong.

А тот факт, что сейчас Витя - глава Администрации, показывает, что (в
худшем случае) Кучма понял, что попытки Медведчука "выйти на майора" были
сделаны исключительно с целью затормозить разглашение пленок. Такое мое
мнение.

Entirely possible.

d> Sorry, Alexei. I don't understand the connection between concealing
d> from Kuchma and ignoring the behavior of Kupchinsky. Please spell this
d> out for me.

Игнорирование Купчинским всех этих "знаковых" событий можно объяснить
как тем, что он знает, что Медведчук на самом деле не контролирует
майора, так и тем, что что не верит сомнительным "фактам".

Никто же не говорит, что Ющеко продался СДПУ(о), если его видели рядом
с Кравчуком...

Possible. Mel. himself claims that he "exploited" Med. But I don't believe one word that Mel. says. I've met the guy and I am convinved he's a fake.

d> No, that was a cheap shot at Pihovshek but intended to indicate
d> that I don't consider him a source of truth and authenticty -- as
d> Kupchinsky evidently considers him. For that matter, I don't consider
d> Karatnycky a source of truth and authenticity either. His and Kupchisky's
d> lack of interest in any evidence casting doubt of the recording's
d> authenticity is proof enough of their lack of interest in the truth.

Источники правды в этом деле, как бы того не хотели всякие спекулянты,
не они. Не Купчинский и не Притула. И не Лютый. Они не сделали ничего
полезного кроме подогрева общественного мнения. И не сделают, ибо
они (и я, и вы, и "фоноскоп") - вторичны. И наше дело, по большому
счету, не спекулировать своими гипотезами. И не убеждать друг друга в
правильности только своих умозаключений.

I apologize if any of my comments have been insulting. As you can see from this positing, I think many of your observations are well taken.

d> But. from all I have learned from following this forum I will say
d> this: Kuchma ordered bad things done to Gongadze. If poor Gia died
d> as a result of what was only intended to be a fright, Kuchma bears
d> responsibility for that, too. IN the US, that's called felony murder.
d> I don't think that Ukraine has a similar criminal category, but morally
d> it's the same. He is guilty of something. Unfortunately, all the assholes
d> involved in this matter are more interested in grinding their axes than in
d> finding the truth (whew, I hope you kept up with me for that tirade).

I've got your point. И я согласен. Но не полагайтесь на форум, как на
истину в первой инстанции. И я всегда считал, что большинство
разговоров вокруг этого дела, большинство "аналитики" - имеют цель
запутать общество.

Sorry, I did not mean that all my information is from the forum, or from the internet or from secondary sources. In fact, most of my information is first hand (what I've seen) and reliable second hand (what other people have seen and told me).

d> I agree, though I'm not sure AST would.

I'm sure he would not.

d> That is debatable. Perhaps Marchuk started the whole thing on his
d> own and then brought Med. in later.

Для чего? Марчук будет делать что-то если ему это выгодно. Я его
выгоды не вижу. И его косвенной поддержки майора или руководства его
действиями тоже.

d> Juding by who is benefitting from this the most, I think the
d> Russians were behind the whole thing. What do you think, Alexei?

Согласен, их выгода "в деле" очень велика. Но кроме подъема Медведчука
и их политических и экономических дивидентов нет никаких намеков на их
участие в деле.

I think that the rise of Medvedchuk and especially the ENORMOUS economic dividents they have gotten out of a weakened Kuchma are damn good circumstantial evidence of a great interest in all this. Perhaps Marchuk is their point man? What do you think?

d> Who?? Which side has proof?

Майор. У него есть записи. Они (по крайней мере их часть) признаны
аутентичными. Это не доказательство?!

Alexei. No court has yet declared any fragment of the recordings authentic. That the State Department claims to have done so is POLITICAL, not LEGAL. Bruce Koenig is only one expert. In a courtroom, he would testify that the tapes are authentic. Then the other side's expert would testify that they aren't authentic, or that its impossible to prove if they are authentic or not. Then the judge or jury would decide who is more believable. Only then can we speak of "proof".

d> Sorry, Alexei, you lost me on that one.
d> The phrase "World Zionist" (despite your smiley emoticons) sends up red
d> flags (not necessarily communist) in my brain, suggesting paranoid conspiracies.
d> I see very little evidence that Israel has benefited at all from this but your
d> suggestions of such, even as a joke, makes me wonder....

Имелось в виду, что единственными аргументами Кучмы&Ко. являются
такие: 1). пленки - подделка (по записям из Интернета);
2). майор - предатель и агент какой-нибудь разведки (неважно какой,
народ на это "поведется").

d> "post-worth"

I left you a clue where to find my idea.
Из всех теперешних силовиков именно поэтому ничего странного в том, что
так считает майор нет.

What makes you say that Марчук наиболее достоен своего
поста. Так считает много людей? Is this your opinion?

d> Mostova gave the information in the context of framing a question to Moroz,
d> saying: we know that Melnychenk'o's lawyer is being paid by Medvedchuk's
d> people and what have you to say about that?

Ничего не нашел. Потрудесь процитировать. Мне интересны детали.
Признаюсь, я слышал эту информацию от многих людей, но нигде не видел
ее подтверждения, хотя-бы и в СМИ.

That will take a long time because if its not on the Internet ZT, then I have to go through all of my newspaper clippings. Can you just take my word on this?

a> please explain what actions of MMM gave trump cards to V.M.

Какие действия майора Мельниченко могут быть однозначно выгодны Медведчуку?

Anything that weakens Kuchma is good for Medvedchuk, Marchuk and Moscow.

d> If you have no public contacts to cite, what are you talking about?

Ни разу не было оглашено о контактах Тимошенко и Мельниченко. Она во
всю использует его записи (транскрипты с "Правды"), но факты контактов
между ними, даже если они и есть, не разглашаются.

Everyone uses the Pravda transcripts. That Timoshenko does so does not prove any contact with Mel. I don't deny the possibility, but you are not citing any evidence. If you have none, but still have a strong feeling that she's mixed up in this, that's OK. But say so.

d> Geez, I thought you people were well informed. The body found in
d> the ground in Tarashcha had no appendix. Gongadze, as far as
d> everyone who knew his medical history and abdominal scars, had his
d> appendix.

Какое тело вы имеете в виду? Извлеченно из земли или находящееся в
морге? Насколько я вас понял, это могут быть РАЗНЫЕ тела. И
подозреваю, что так оно и есть.

Lets talk bodies
1. A body was found in the woods in Tarashcha on Nov. 2
2. On Nov. 15, Prytula, Malazonia, Alania and Dobrovolska go to Tarashcha where they are shown a corpse in the morgue. Dobrovolska photographs the corpse (see below). While the group is elsewhere, the corpse is taken away. Vorotynsev gives Prytula what he claims is tissue from the corpse wrapped in a plastic bag. She puts this in her purse and then stores it in her refrigerator at home. (yes, that's weird and macabre, but as I've said before, Prytula's actions have been suspicious from the outset.)
3. On Dec. 18, Miroslava and her lawyer Minenko are shown remains in the Kiev morgue on Oranjereina. These remains are a pile of loose bones and a separate bundle of soft tissue.
4. On April 27, Lesia G., Fedur and Minenko, together with the FBI experts, view the remains. Minenko -- who is the only person present to have seen the remains in December, says that they look about the same as they did then.
I believe that this covers all the known viewings by non-official people of all the known corpses. We do not know if all these viewings were of the same or different remains (except for Minenko's visual identification that the april remains looked the same as the december remains)

d> This is the testimony (albeit not sworn) of one of group
d> of peole who went to Tarashcha the day the corpse was "discovered".
d> As for the morgue, have you seen the photos of the corpse???? I
d> have, and they depict a body, not easily recognizable, but a body,
d> with a torso, legs and one arm.

А вторая рука?

Good catch, Alexei. It was late and I was tired. In fact, no arms are visible in the photographs. I had a forensics expert look at the photos and because plastic wrapping covered some of the corpse, he couldn't tell if the arm was missing entirely or concealed by the plastic.

d> What was in the morge when Miroslava identifiedit (read the new
d> reports) was a pile of loose bones and a bundle of soft tisuue.
d> From the time the corpse was
d> revealed in mid-November to the time that Miroslava saw the
d> remains, less than a month had passed. All you experts out there,
d> maybe you wil tell me how a corpse became a pile of bones in one month?

Зачем ей показывали кости, если есть тело, без головы и руки, как вы
утверждаете?

Isn't that the $64,000 question? My suggested answers are:
1. The Tarashcha corpse was Gongadze, and it was deliberately treated to make it a pile of bones that can't be identified.
2. The Tarashcha corpse wasn't Gongadze, but someone wanted everyone to believe that it was, and therefore treated it in such a way that it can't be identified as not-him.
Personally, I don't believe that the Tarascha corpse was G. I think that "they" had his corpse all along and at some point it became convenient to pretend that it was the Tarascha corpse.

d> As for the genetics, we can discuss this at length, but the German
d> testing of the remains that Prytula claimed to have taken from
d> Tarashcha were NEGATIVE. They were not Gongadze.

Тут я Притулу не пойму. Она не должна была брать С ТОГО тела
"материал". Если она так сделала, то очень холоднокровно оценила
ситуацию. Или врет.

d> That does not in any way suggest that G is not dead. I think he is.
d> But I don't think the Tarascha corpse is his.

Я могу предположить, что вы намекаете, что тело найденное в Тараще НЕ
БЫЛО ТЕЛОМ ГОНГАДЗЕ, но тело в морге - ЭТО ТЕЛО ГОНГАДЗЕ. Так?

Yes.

---------------------
P.S. Peter - провокатор :-))


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Re: idiot patriot, patsan i obman
Автор: dizzy
Дата: 26-10-02 14:36

Те, що тіла зараз не їснує є результатом багаточисельних його розтинів.

I am not talking about how the remains look now. My question is: how did a corpse become a pile of bones in one month (see my posting to Alexei)?
An autopsy absolutely does not require destroying the entire body -- especially before it has been shown to next of kin for identification.

Лише Воротинцев повністю знищив обидві руки,

What do you mean? Why did he destroy them? Are you talking about the hands or the arms?

вилучив внутрішні органи та ін...

100% це те саме тіло.

If that is the case, and body is Gongadze's, why did the Tarashcha corpse have no appendix while Gongadze did.

Запитайте в Воротинцева. Експертизу в Києві робив його знайомий, вони зізвонювались і обговорювали деталі зроблених їм раніше розтинів. Вони говорили про те саме тіло.

Maybe they were both talking about the body from Tarashcha, but you have given me any evidence that that body is the source of the pile of bones Myroslava identified.

Дивне вивезення тіла з моргу так само як і бажання Притули взяти з собою рештки цього тіла було абсолютно НЕПРОГНОЗОВАНИМ і ВИПАДКОВИМ розвитком подій 15 листопада. Лише потім цим хтось розумно скористався.

Негативний результат експертизи в Мюнхені є наслідком причетності до неї тієї самої компанії людей, що переховували в той час Мельниченко

Please explain "наслідком причетності". Who are you talking about? Kupchinsky? Moroz? They were involved in hiding Melnychenko once he left Ukraine. But it was Ivasiuk who took the tissue sample from Prytula and Holovaty who took it to Munich.


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For Alexei
Автор: dizzy
Дата: 26-10-02 14:59

From Pasqual's interview in ZT:

Ми вважаємо запис автентичним, і не бачимо ніякої необхідності у проведенні додаткових досліджень. Крім того, ми не вважаємо, що дане питання є правовим, і тому не вважаємо, що українські експерти повинні брати участь в аналізі", - підкреслив посол.

На питання, чому б Сполученим Штатам не надати українській стороні технічну документацію проведеної експертизи, Паскуаль відповів, що в Америки немає нічого, что потрібно було б ховати. "Питання у тому, що у нас немає ані найменшої зацікавленості, щоб починати якусь форму змагання щодо експертиз з українською стороною. У нас є впевненість у тих результатах, які ми одержали", - сказав він.


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for dizzy
Автор: Алексей
Дата: 26-10-02 15:45

Какраз хотел вам это процитировать, но вы же меня и опередили.

-----------------------

Паскуаль нагадав, що МЗС України направив Штатам дипломатичну ноту, в якій йшла мова про те, що українська сторона провела експертизу запису розмови Кучми з главою "Укрспецекспорту" Валерієм Малєвим, яка була вивішена в Інтернеті, і прийшла висновку, що запис, зроблений екс-майором держохорони Миколою Мельниченком, не є автентичною.

"За тиждень ми відповіли нашою дипломатичною нотою, в якій повідомили, що американською стороною була проведена експертиза оригіналу запису з наданням звукозаписного пристрою. Дослідження проводилося електронною лабораторією ФБР, яка є однієї з кращих у світі", - сказав він.


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Re: idiot patriot, patsan i obman
Автор: Володимир
Дата: 26-10-02 16:26

Керівництво США не вірить “фоноскопу”-аматору

За повідомленням інформагентств, Президент Сполучених Штатів не хоче вірити чесному слову найкращого “фоноскопа” серед аматорів Олексія Степури. Самозваний експерт запевняє, що записи, зроблені в кабінеті Президента України, зокрема, епізод, де Гарант Української Конституції дає згоду на продаж Іракові зброї, є фальшивими. Такого висновку “фоноскоп” дійшов завдяки кільком місяцям неперервного прослуховування піддиванних записів під час затяжної хвороби. За дорученням Президента США оцінку творчим потугам відомого аматора дав посол Сполучених Штатів в Україні.
Паскуаль нагадав, що МЗС України, пішовши на поводу у відомого ерудита О.Степури, направив Штатам дипломатичну ноту, в якій йшла мова про те, що українська сторона провела експертизу запису розмови Кучми з главою "Укрспецекспорту" Валерієм Малєвим, яка була вивішена в Інтернеті, і прийшла висновку, що запис, зроблений екс-майором держохорони Миколою Мельниченком, не є автентичною.
"За тиждень ми відповіли нашою дипломатичною нотою, в якій повідомили, що американською стороною була проведена експертиза оригіналу запису з наданням звукозаписного пристрою. Дослідження проводилося електронною лабораторією ФБР, яка є однієї з кращих у світі", - сказав він.
Крім того, підкреслив посол, "сполучення аудіоаналізу і технологічних експертиз, що були проведені, дозволяє встановити, що цей цифровий запис не піддавався якій-небудь обробці". "Ми впевнені у тому, що маніпуляцій з цифровими файлами не було, що немає розривів запису і що на плівці немає дивних і специфічних звуків, що могли б свідчити про втручання у запис або про проведення з ним якихось маніпуляцій", - сказав Паскуаль.
"Ми вважаємо запис автентичним, і не бачимо ніякої необхідності у проведенні додаткових досліджень. Крім того, ми не вважаємо, що дане питання є правовим, і тому не вважаємо, що українські експерти повинні брати участь в аналізі", - підкреслив посол.
На питання, чому б Сполученим Штатам не надати українській стороні технічну документацію проведеної експертизи, Паскуаль відповів, що в Америки немає нічого, що потрібно було б ховати. "Питання у тому, що у нас немає ані найменшої зацікавленості, щоб починати якусь форму змагання щодо експертиз з українською стороною. У нас є впевненість у тих результатах, які ми одержали", - сказав він.

І все однаково ті записи фальшиві,
Ганьба Паскуалю, слава Степурі! Навіки слава…


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Останній раз
Автор: АST
Дата: 26-10-02 17:02

dizzy сказал:
> Please explain "наслідком причетності". Who are you talking
> about? Kupchinsky? Moroz? They were involved in hiding
> Melnychenko once he left Ukraine. But it was Ivasiuk who
> took the tissue sample from Prytula and Holovaty who took it
> to Munich.

Були спільні знайомі в Головатого та Цвіля. Мельниченко спочатку проживав під охороною в пансіонаті в Моравії , що належить до цієї фінансової структури.

smooch!


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4 dizzy #3
Автор: Алексей
Дата: 26-10-02 17:29

dizzy,

я не имею ничего против вас, как вам могло показаться ранее. И я приветствую отношение к форуму, как к месту выражения мнения, а не месту для "слива" компромата и слухов. К сожалению некоторые личности именно для этого и пытаются форум приспособить.

Я не смогу оспорить ваше мнение, что мельниченко не выдержит перекрестного допроса. Однако и вы не сможете доказать, что это так, пока это не случится. Мое мнение - он гораздо умнее, чем кажется. Потому, что в ох