view from Canada
12/04/2004 | ladalesia
[Passing on an opinion from a discussion group on Infoukes.com (Canada & US) -- Hope someone is listening
___________________________
I hate to rain on people's parade, but yes, we had a small
victory but there is still a long way to go to victory in
3 weeks. Do you think Kuchma & mafia are going to let their
power and inflluence go that easily? I think not.
Already Canada says they will only increase 49 observers
to 79 observers "BUT" only if Ukraine asks. Excuse me but
Kuchma still holds the reigns of power and he ain't going
to ask. It is against his own & his cronies best interest
to have more witnesses to another round of corruption.
Make note there are 33,000 polls to monitor -- that is a
hell of alot places to fuck around with (Excuse my
Russian) without any monitoring. Look at what they
did in front of monitors, think what they do with
no monitors/obsevers there. At very minimum we would
need 100,000 people on the ground to monitor every poll.
That is a difficult task to organize even when one has
the time to do so.
I am also of the belief, that 3 weeks will give time to
Kuchma to start a purge of all government and military
personnel who declared loyalty to Yushchenko, thus an
instant "Rusification" of the organs of government.
Goodbye any progress made in the last 14 years.
Yushchenko got that support openly and freely and next
time he needs it people will not so easily give it
because there are consequences to pay if he backs down
and leaves them hanging again.
If we have the same CEC running things except without
the few honest board memebers who resigned in protest
over the vote, who do you think is going to be left
in on the inside to make sure their is some witnesses
to the process. In other words there are none as they
have already been smoked out.
I am of the belief that the end game was to continue
ratcheting up the pressure instead of giving another
3 weeks for the forces of evil to regroup and prepare
for the tactics employed after this last round of elections.
You think they will allow people to mass again on the
square of independence? I think not. I would hazard
a guess that they will lock down Kyiv in preparation
to the next election and keep it that way so the same
people power can be denied. They will have command
centers in place and undoubtedly loyal shock troops
in place and ready.
I also bet they will move out any incriminating
documents over the next few weeks to secure &
secret locations.
I look at today's announcement as a tactical & moral
victory but a strategic failure as we are reseting
the people power back to level zero -- in other words
we will have lost all ground gained in the last week
and leveled the playing field with opponents who
have no moral fortitude..
I am still of the belief that Yushchenko should have
continued ratcheting up the power and taken over when
they buckled under the stress. Once you have power
then you hold your royal commission/parliamentary
public commissions and investigate the fraud and
corruption and make it a show trial and you make a
case for your actions.
It also gives time to Putin to come up with some deal
with the USA a la Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and the USA
will sell Ukraine away for support in Iraq. Just watch
the USA media, the only election they seem to be mainly
talking about is the Iraqi election. Ukraine has
yet to reach the high levels of their attention.
Putin will use energy as a lever against europe and
all our wonderful allies are gone up in smoke.
When dealing with evil, and with people who think nothing
about committing murder, robbing the assets of Ukraine
for their personal benefit, killing journalists
and attempted assasination of Yushchenko, and are
willing to hand Ukraine lock stock & barrel to Russia
for servitude over the next 50-300 years, These
people have no morals and I don't think they will
start playing fair & honest now just because the
people spoke. It is extremely naive of us and the
people in Kyiv to believe such things. I think the
game is going to get really dirty in this next round
and this last round we caught the bandits off guard
because the bandits took the pasivity of the Ukrainian
public for granted. In 3 weeks they will be prepared
for it. Mark my words: so the side of light should
wake up and smell the coffee and prepare for the
dirtiest election campaign ever seen anywhere in
the world. The stakes are extremely high and the
other side will not back down easily. They have
wealth & power & their freedom to lose if they
lose.
I think we have fallen into a well crafted trap
and now are in a position of putting our trust
in people that have the moral fibre of Stalin,
Kagenovich, & Beria. Fool me once, shame on them,
fool me twice, shame on me.
Sorry to be a thorn in the side, but it is time to
realize the long voyage to freedom has only
started and the question now becomes do the people
in Ukraine have the will power to see it thru this
long and treacherous road? We have not seen the
hard part yet and I hope to God that the orange-relovution
is planning for worst case thus will be properly
prepared to navigate this long and brutal road. We
have already lost the element of surprise. Now is
time to play hard ball.
___________________________
I hate to rain on people's parade, but yes, we had a small
victory but there is still a long way to go to victory in
3 weeks. Do you think Kuchma & mafia are going to let their
power and inflluence go that easily? I think not.
Already Canada says they will only increase 49 observers
to 79 observers "BUT" only if Ukraine asks. Excuse me but
Kuchma still holds the reigns of power and he ain't going
to ask. It is against his own & his cronies best interest
to have more witnesses to another round of corruption.
Make note there are 33,000 polls to monitor -- that is a
hell of alot places to fuck around with (Excuse my
Russian) without any monitoring. Look at what they
did in front of monitors, think what they do with
no monitors/obsevers there. At very minimum we would
need 100,000 people on the ground to monitor every poll.
That is a difficult task to organize even when one has
the time to do so.
I am also of the belief, that 3 weeks will give time to
Kuchma to start a purge of all government and military
personnel who declared loyalty to Yushchenko, thus an
instant "Rusification" of the organs of government.
Goodbye any progress made in the last 14 years.
Yushchenko got that support openly and freely and next
time he needs it people will not so easily give it
because there are consequences to pay if he backs down
and leaves them hanging again.
If we have the same CEC running things except without
the few honest board memebers who resigned in protest
over the vote, who do you think is going to be left
in on the inside to make sure their is some witnesses
to the process. In other words there are none as they
have already been smoked out.
I am of the belief that the end game was to continue
ratcheting up the pressure instead of giving another
3 weeks for the forces of evil to regroup and prepare
for the tactics employed after this last round of elections.
You think they will allow people to mass again on the
square of independence? I think not. I would hazard
a guess that they will lock down Kyiv in preparation
to the next election and keep it that way so the same
people power can be denied. They will have command
centers in place and undoubtedly loyal shock troops
in place and ready.
I also bet they will move out any incriminating
documents over the next few weeks to secure &
secret locations.
I look at today's announcement as a tactical & moral
victory but a strategic failure as we are reseting
the people power back to level zero -- in other words
we will have lost all ground gained in the last week
and leveled the playing field with opponents who
have no moral fortitude..
I am still of the belief that Yushchenko should have
continued ratcheting up the power and taken over when
they buckled under the stress. Once you have power
then you hold your royal commission/parliamentary
public commissions and investigate the fraud and
corruption and make it a show trial and you make a
case for your actions.
It also gives time to Putin to come up with some deal
with the USA a la Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and the USA
will sell Ukraine away for support in Iraq. Just watch
the USA media, the only election they seem to be mainly
talking about is the Iraqi election. Ukraine has
yet to reach the high levels of their attention.
Putin will use energy as a lever against europe and
all our wonderful allies are gone up in smoke.
When dealing with evil, and with people who think nothing
about committing murder, robbing the assets of Ukraine
for their personal benefit, killing journalists
and attempted assasination of Yushchenko, and are
willing to hand Ukraine lock stock & barrel to Russia
for servitude over the next 50-300 years, These
people have no morals and I don't think they will
start playing fair & honest now just because the
people spoke. It is extremely naive of us and the
people in Kyiv to believe such things. I think the
game is going to get really dirty in this next round
and this last round we caught the bandits off guard
because the bandits took the pasivity of the Ukrainian
public for granted. In 3 weeks they will be prepared
for it. Mark my words: so the side of light should
wake up and smell the coffee and prepare for the
dirtiest election campaign ever seen anywhere in
the world. The stakes are extremely high and the
other side will not back down easily. They have
wealth & power & their freedom to lose if they
lose.
I think we have fallen into a well crafted trap
and now are in a position of putting our trust
in people that have the moral fibre of Stalin,
Kagenovich, & Beria. Fool me once, shame on them,
fool me twice, shame on me.
Sorry to be a thorn in the side, but it is time to
realize the long voyage to freedom has only
started and the question now becomes do the people
in Ukraine have the will power to see it thru this
long and treacherous road? We have not seen the
hard part yet and I hope to God that the orange-relovution
is planning for worst case thus will be properly
prepared to navigate this long and brutal road. We
have already lost the element of surprise. Now is
time to play hard ball.
Відповіді
2004.12.04 | AndriyM
Re: view from Canada
Which organizations in Canada are sending observers? And is the government itself (perhaps through DFAIT or CIDA)? I would like to get involved.2004.12.04 | Prosector
Re: view from Canada
http://www.livejournal.com/community/2004_vybory_ua/1664272.html?nc=20Ось люди пишуть про можливі варіанти того, як з цим боротися. Деякі можуть здатися не зовсім реальними, але якщо дуже захотіти, то все можна (напр., демократично налаштованих національно свідомих солдат пару штук на кожну дільницю).
Ще про спостерігачів:
1. Спостерігачі потрібні обізнані з законодавством України про вибори (наскільки я розумію, не всі були (зокрема ті, що приїхали з діаспори, - але здається, таких було не так багато).
2. Спостерігачам варто не стільки фіксувати порушення, скільки їх запобігати (наскільки я чув, багато просто фіксувало ПІСЛЯ факту).
3. Фізичний стан спостерігачів як засіб невикидання їх з дільниць (присилати молодих здорових хлопців).
4. Чув від західних спостерігачів скарги на те, що довелося ночувати в не зовсім опалюваному приміщенні. Млін, а вони думають, що вони на курорт їдуть? Чи в умови, наближені до бойових?
5. Спостерігачам з діаспори для введення в курс справ читати майдан.орг.уа як мінімум тиждень перед приїздом.
2004.12.04 | AndriyM
Re: view from Canada
Чи "дозволено" спостерігачам запобігати фальсифікаціям? Чи створює це питання про їхню нейтральність?2004.12.04 | Prosector
Re: view from Canada
Залежачи від того, як запобігати.Приклад: спостерігач стоїть за спиною у членів комісії, що видають бюлетені, та дивиться, щоб все робилося чином (підпис виборця в списку, підпис члена ДВК на бюлетені і в списку тощо). Якщо член ДВК забуває поставити підпис, де треба, йому/їй нагадують і, таким чином, бюлетень потім не буде визнаний недійсним за браком підписа члена ДВК.
Приклад ще: хтось намагається вкинути в урну більш ніж один бюлетень. Спостерігач хапає за руку (чи за бюлетені) і припиняє це: це робиться НА ДОТРИМАННЯ ЗАКОНА, не на порушення закона (власне, цим запобігається порушення).
Останній приклад: якщо на дільницю забігають з битами, спостерігачі мають право захищати власну фізичну недоторканість і цілісність, і бити падлюк в якості самооборони. Не знаю детально про положення відповідного закону, але здається є щось таке про те, що будь-яка людина може вживати відповідних заходів, якщо бачить, що хтось збирається порушувати закон (збирається нанести тілесні ушкодження комусь іншому).
2004.12.04 | ПІП
Re: view from Canada
Так, виграно бій, але слід виграти війну. Я не думаю, що ті хто стоїть на чолі цього нерозуміють. І я не думаю, що радість від виграного бою, закриє очі на реальні обставини і зашкодить грунтовному приготуванню до довгострокової і напруженої праці.Песемізм, як і ейфорія не повинні мати місця. Тільки вперед.
Ora et labora - молися і працюй.