питання на засипку: "диявольска інтуїція"
01/27/2008 | Tatarchuk
Часто кажуть та пишуть "в ньго диявольска інтуїція", "інтуїція наче в дьявола". А хіба в диявола є інтуїція? 
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Архіви Форумів Майдану
Copyleft (C) maidan.org.ua - 2000-2024. Цей сайт підтримує Громадська організація Інформаційний центр "Майдан Моніторинг".
Відповіді
2008.01.27 | Георгій
Ось запис лeкції в одній православній сeмінарії на цю тeму
Наскільки я зрозумів із цих нотаток, за православним віровчeнням, ми просто нe можeмо раціонально описати інтeлeктуальних якостeй ангeлів (диявол є одним з них), оскільки ми за самою нашою фізичною природою радикально інші від них. Ми тільки можeмо констатувати, що ці інтeлeктуальні якості в них є, алe які вони - ми нe розуміємо.____________________
March 28, 2007
Angels and invisible world
The Christian church believes that God has created the visible world as well as the invisible one. He brought, as we have emphasized, everything from nothing (ex nihilo). St. John of Damascus states that in the Christian tradition there is a disagreement about the creation of angels. Gregory the theologian = conceived the angels and bodiless powers. Others say that they were created after the creation of heaven.
Because they are of spiritual substence they have been created first, and then we have the creation of the material world (John Damascus). God created first the spiritual world, then the physical world.
The angels as spiritual entities are intellectual substance. Constantly moving, incorporeal, ministering to God, and have received the gift if immortality. The immortality of the angelic world is something that they have b/c of their unity and communion with God’s grace.
What is the intellectual substance of the angels? John Damascus says we cannot understand the intellectual substance of the angels. Only the creator can understand this substance. We have to acknowledge that compared to us, they are radically different.
The angels as created beings are changeable (only God is unchangeable). It is difficult for them to change b/c of their constant communion with God. If the angels are changeable by virtue of the fact that they are created, this means that there is a possibility for them to be the messengers of God, the ones who praise God, and even to oppose the will of God.
The angels are immortal not by nature, but by grace. John Damascus says that everything that has a beginning has an end. Only God is always existing. They have a life themselves, but it is a reflection of the life of who God is. Their brightness is a reflection of the brightness of the grace of God in them.
They do not speak. They do not hear. Rather, they communicate their will, their thoughts, without having spoken words (John Damascus). All the angels created by God, have been created by the Word of God and perfected through the sanctification of the HS. Their dignity and brightness reflects their proximity to God’s glory.
The angels are circumscribed beings. They cannot be here on earth as well as in paradise. They can only be in one place at one time. They are not confined by doors, walls, etc. because they are un-bowled (no insides). They can go through matter and communicate their will to us. They can communicate the will of God by assuming a variety of forms.
If they are immaterial beings, in communicating the will of God, they can assume different forms. They can radiate the will of God in their brightness. They can also communicate the love and hospitality of God in human forms, in a variety of ways.
The angels are holy not because of their essence, but because of their unity with God. Their future is grounded in God’s grace. Nothing apart from God’s grace can be intrinsically good or live eternally, including the angels.
Since they are intellects and circumscribed beings, they cannot be everywhere at the same time. They are limited by space and time, as created beings. They are present in whatever context God has asked them to be, or has sent them to communicate His love. Whether the angels are equal in essence or differ from one another, we do NOT KNOW.
The degree of their proximity to God, makes some of them brighter than others. They illuminate one another by the excellence of their rank or nature. The angels are vigorous in the execution of the divine will. They appear immediately according to the will of God = in an instantaneous manner. They fulfill the will of God in a vigorous and uncompromising way.
They watch over the parts of the earth. They are guarders of nations and people, sent by God. That presence and guardiancy which they offer, tells us of the proximity of them to us and our proximity to God.
As created beings they are subject to change. John Damascus recognizes this and states that the angels with difficulty move towards evil, but it is possible. Simply because the goodness of God pervades in their being. So, it is difficult for them, but not impossible, to move away from God.
They are sustained by God’s glory. They take whatever form God may command. They appear to man in the divine mysteries. They live mostly in the heavens. It is their task to praise God.
Angelic ranks
All these details are from the writings of Dionysios Areopogite. He said that the angels have been divided into 9 ranks. God divides them into 3 orders of 3.
Six winged Seraphim
Many eyed cherubim
Most holy Thrones
Dominions
Virtues
Powers
Principalities
Archangels
Angels
The first rank surrounds God and praises His glory. John Damascus repudiates those those think that the angels have the power to create any substance in themselves. This view is from the devil. Since they are creatures they cannot be creators. The only one who can create is God Himself.
According to the Tradition of the church, the angels and immaterial world, has been created before the creation of matter and humanity. The angels are divided in ranks. We do not know whether or not one rank is higher than the other. There IS a different degree of brightness for each order. This brightness has to do with their proximity to God, not with their essence.
It is possible for them as created beings, to fall. It is very difficult for them to fall b/c of their proximity to God’s grace.
Once human beings live with God and experience the glory and grace of God, it is difficult for them to move away from God.
Fall of the Angels
The notion of the devil is very important to explain the origins of evil that exists in God’s creation. If God has created everything to be substantially and intrinsically good, what is the origin of evil that opposes God’s will itself? The notion of the devil or Satan is important in Christian cosmology because it provides to us an important explanation of how evil has appeared in God’s creation.
St. John of Damascus said that one of the angelic powers had been entrusted by God with the custody of the earth. Although this angelic power was not evil by nature, but good, and although he had been made for good and did not have in himself the trace of evil in him, he did not keep the brightness of God’s goodness.
He was the first in god’s creation to abandon god’s goodness and embrace evil. Evil is described as no more than the deprivation of good, just as darkness is the absence of light.
By his free choice he turned from what was according to nature, to what was against it. By his FREE NATURE, his free choice, this angelic power turned against his nature and became evil, rebelling against God.
It is this angelic power, who rebelled against God’s will and against his old nature. Therefore the devil is the first one who deprived himself from the goodness of god, which is evil. The devil explains the origins of evil in God’s good creation.
If the brightness of the angel reflects god’s glory, then the darkness of evil reflects the loss of God’s glory. Deprivation of God’s grace. Although the devil as an angelic power is of the same substance with the angels, he has become bad by freely turning from good to evil.
The devil and the satanic powers have no power or strength against anyone unless they are permitted by the dispensation of God, or by our receptivity of the evil that they have brought to the world. If God gives them permission they have strength and transform the church from its original desires.
Devil is allowed by God’s dispensation and providence for pedagogical reasons, to test the faith of believers, and whatever else. John Damascus insists that neither the angels of god nor the evil spirits know the future. Nevertheless they foretell the future. The angels try to tell the future because God has revealed the future to them.
The evil spirits foretell the future because of what they see in the present. The devil has the power to discern what the separation from God means. In some instances they are guessing the future. John Damascus says that the devil knows the scriptures very well. Don’t believe in the devil because there is an inevitability of death that he brings.
The power of the devil is limited not only by God’s providence but also by our resistance. Our refusal to embrace him and to accept his way as the way to live. All evil and a few passions have been conceived by him and have been allowed to attack man. However they cannot force ANYONE. It is our power to accept or reject. If we have the power to resist the evil ways of the devil, we are responsible for the choices that we are making. We are determining our future. As we reject the will of God and embrace the pleasures of the devil.
Just as there is no independence after death, so there is none after their fall. Now, after the fall, their will is changed to go against God. There is no repentance for the devil because he objects to the will of God and to his goodness.
The relationships which we develop in this life save our identity not only in this world but also in life after death as we approach god. The gospel of JC is about this life. The relationships, embracing the gospel, liberates from the evil and alienation and oppression, confusion, darkness, etc. that I can experience as Hell in this life.
Because people have not built relationships in this life, it is possible for them to not feel God’s love and grace, even if they LIVE in the Kingdom. They are not capable of receiving the grace of god in this life as well as the life after death.
One of the interpretations of our suffering is that it is a test. Through our suffering our faith in God deepens, etc. THIS IS NOT THE ONLY EXPLANATION. Sometimes the suffering in the world is perceived as a PUNISHMENT of God, in other instances WE DO NOT KNOW, there is a suffering which cannot be explained.
In Ecclesiastes it says that “this is life” there is sorrow and joy, try to make the best of it. In Deuteronomy we have the explicit belief that God blesses the righteous and punishes the wicked. In Job we have a righteous Job who does not deserve the suffering he experiences. He protests against God. There is no answer to his suffering. Just the affirmation of God’s providence. In the psalms of lamentation we see righteous people feeling the total absence of god and at the same time the justification and intervention of God in their afflicted situations.
In the prophets suffering becomes redemptive. Somehow the suffering of the innocent redeems the humanity. In life there exists a senseless and unexplainable suffering. The only way to address this suffering is to be committed in struggles for its illumination. We must search out for a meaning for it, and struggle to eliminate it. In front of suffering be humble and be human. Do not try to give cognitive answers.
The devil was part of the Powers (rank of angel) because they were in charge of the world.
The angels were created partly because there is a hierarchy of addressing our issues. We in America like to go directly to God. The cult of the saints and angels is missing here. There is a hierarchy that we need to go through!! God is totally unapproachable, so how can we try to get to Him? How is God involved in the world? He is involved through intermediaries.
We use the saints as our ambassadors to God. Our sinfulness, our unworthiness does not allow us to be in proximity of God.
We pray for forgiveness of sins for those who have already established a relationship with God here on earth. Those who have ceased to be with God in this life, do not have the possibility to be with God. The gospel is about this life. Because of Christ’s resurrection everything we do in this life is critical. It is in this world that God is challenging us.
We have possibility for repentance b/c of our bodies. The angels do not because they are incorporeal.
2008.01.27 | Тестер
Shildebunei deviletcht!
2008.01.27 | Тестер
Що в перекладі значить "Кергуду! Бамбарбія"
2008.01.27 | Георгій
Ні. Цe насправді означає ἁιμοβοροι τουρκοι!
(Читається "(г)eмоворі туркі!" - означає, "кровозажeрливі турки!!!" - цe одна гeроїня фільму "My Big Fat Greek Wedding," 90-річна грeцька бабуся, так казала на всіх, кого вона нe розуміла, тобто на всіх амeриканців.2008.01.28 | Тестер
У студентські роки у нас був модний термін
"Habes geweisen"? який застосовувався в будь яких випадках,особливо для завершення оповіді якоїсь пригоди.наприклад: Вчора розгрузили вагон ячменю на пивзаводі, попили пива, і заробили по 30 рублів. І хабес дєвейзен!
Вітя вчора проводжав дівку в далекий район, а коли вертався місцеві пацани надавали по мордам. І хабес дєвейзен... Ну і так далі. Вираз подібний на літературний, але нічого не означав...
2008.01.27 | Тестер
А хіба є диявол???
2008.01.27 | Tatarchuk
в рамках теорії - точно є
Люди які вживають поняття "диявольська інтуїція", вже напевно мають на увазі що є й диявол. А от нафіга дияволу інтуїція (спосіб альтернативно передбачати майбутнє та приховане)?2008.01.27 | (в.о.) P.M.
Re: питання на засипку: "диявольска інтуїція"
Tatarchuk пише:> Часто кажуть та пишуть "в ньго диявольска інтуїція", "інтуїція наче в дьявола". А хіба в диявола є інтуїція?
Часто можна почути й "диявольський розум", бо фактично інтуїція є похідною від розуму.
Аби зорієнтуватися, порівняймо поняття інстинкт і інтуїція.
Інстинкт виявляється у вчинках, інтуїція в думках.
Очевидно тому, в стосунку до тварин вживається термін інстинкт, а до людини -- інтуїція.
2008.01.28 | Tatarchuk
отже, диявола уподоблюють людині
2008.01.28 | (в.о.) P.M.
Саме людИна послухалася диявола. Коні -- невинні
2008.01.28 | Тестер
Божа благодать, це коли людина чинить добро, а диявольські
"штуки", як правило, асоціюються у нашій свідомості зі злом.Більш універсальним терміном,НМД, є термін, який використовує Социст, СПЕКУЛЯЦІЇ. Таким терміном можна називати, різні думки та вчинки і підходити до них дуалістично...
2008.01.27 | Георгій
Питання до того, хто задав питання
Ви нe проти, якщо я відповідаю англійською? Вибачтe, якщо Ви проти, я тоді нe буду. У мeнe просто дійсно під рукою був цeй фрагмeнт з лeкційного зошиту, що мeні його надіслав один мій віртуальний знайомий, амeриканський православний (сeрбського eтнічного походжeння), з яким я познайомився на форумі OC.net. Він прямо от зараз навчається у православній сeмінарії, і я подумав, мабуть його інформація "най-свіжіша," найкращe відображає самe тeпeрeшню, сьогоднішню доктринальну позицію Цeркви.2008.01.28 | Tatarchuk
Re: Питання до того, хто задав питання
Георгій пише:> Ви нe проти, якщо я відповідаю англійською? Вибачтe, якщо Ви проти, я тоді нe буду. У мeнe просто дійсно під рукою був цeй фрагмeнт з лeкційного зошиту, що мeні його надіслав один мій віртуальний знайомий, амeриканський православний (сeрбського eтнічного походжeння), з яким я познайомився на форумі OC.net. Він прямо от зараз навчається у православній сeмінарії, і я подумав, мабуть його інформація "най-свіжіша," найкращe відображає самe тeпeрeшню, сьогоднішню доктринальну позицію Цeркви.
Я то може й не проти, але ехвект від цього нульовий
2008.01.28 | Георгій
Ну, тоді добрe, що я хоч рeзюмe написав
"Карочє, Cкліфасовскій,"2008.01.28 | Тестер
Ще пару фраз. Я для себе пояснюю такі речі наступним чином
Якщо людина чогось не розуміє, чи в неї мало інформації про той чи інший поцес, подію, явище чи річ, то вона зазвичай каже, А бог його знає, або чорт його знає. Тобто рописується у своєму безсиллі. От для того і були деякими не дурними людьми придумані категорії символи, які і заповнювали дефіцит інформаційного наповнення...далі-більше, виявляється це непогані інструменти управління і підкорення свідомості інших людей, якщо ними уміло користуватись. Тепло-холод, голодний-ситий, свій-чужий, ну і так далі...
2008.01.29 | Василь Васьківський
Погоджуюсь: що бог, що чорт – один чорт!
Біблія без чорта була б нецікавим текстом і її ніхто б не читав. А завдяки чорту її проголосили святим письмом. Чим більше хтось вірить в бога, тим більше він вірить в чорта, бо інакше йому нема в що вірити, оскільки він не може собі уявити бога без чорта...Тема дійсно цікава!