МАЙДАН - За вільну людину у вільній країні


Архіви Форумів Майдану

A draft of my second letter to Bishop Seminack

01/04/2010 | Георгій
Please comment.

*************************************

His Grace Bishop Richard Stephen SEMINACK
2245 West Rice Street
Chicago, IL 60622

Your Grace,

I am writing in regard of the continuing malicious public misrepresentation of the teaching of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church by a subject of your Eparchy, a Chicago resident called Mr. Yuriy Protsiv.

This is my second letter to you. I wrote to you for the first time approximately two years ago, regarding the same problem and person. Back then, you honored me by a phone call, and you most kindly gave me names of several Chicago-based Ukrainian Eastern Rite Catholic priests who could help resolve the matter. Unfortunately, Fr. Hudzyan happened to be on a long-term leave, and two other clergymen whom I succeeded in reaching by phone could not recall the above person as their parishioner.

Since the time of our telephone conversation, the situation has greatly worsened. Mr. Protsiv intensified his online "preaching" on the "Maidan" forum (http://www2.maidanua.org/news/index.php3?bn=maidan_rel&site=maidan, under a nickname _P.M._), where he expresses an amalgam of Gnostic, Monophysitist and Docetic views (printouts enclosed), aggressively "selling" them as teachings of the Catholic Church.

All attempts to argue with Mr. Protsiv from Scripture and patristic sources (e.g. from the "Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith" by St. John of Damascus) invariably caused only a new flood of the same non-Christian, essentially Gnostic arguments, e.g.:

- that the Fall meant separation of the purely spiritual angelic, heavenly Adam from God, resulting in the acquizition by the fallen Adam of the human body with its limits and visible shape;

- that Christ cannot possibly have two natures and be co-substantial with us in His humanity because He "killed" His humanity and left it on "this sinful earth," ascending to Heaven as a pure spirit of the entirely Divine nature;

- that salvation means getting rid of "everything created" (i.e. material body with its tangible substance and visible contours), and becoming God in the sense of acquiring the Divine immaterial, limitless, shapeless NATURE (because the human nature is the result of sin and, as such, allegedly cannot and should not be saved).

Mr. Protsiv most aggressively asserts that all of the above is exactly what the Catholic Church teaches; he is doing it through manipulating with Scriptural, partistic, and catechismal texts. In parallel, Mr. Protsiv continuously ridicules the notion of Christ's true humanity and true bodily Ascension, repeating that "only the biggest idiot can believe that Christ grew for Himself on this sinful earth arms, legs and other human male 'equipment' and took all that with Him to Heaven." The Catholic Church, according to Mr. Protsiv, teaches that Christ has only one Divine nature and that He had His human flesh and body parts only "temporarily, while walking on this earth."

As I told you in our telephone conversation, when an ordained Ukrainian Greek Catholic priest objected to this misrepresentation of the Catholic teaching, Mr. Protsiv publicly called him a person who, allegedly, has no understanding of the Catholic faith. Since then, Mr. Protsiv never apologized to this priest and, moreover, repeated his insulting remarks to this priest's address.

In addition, because I also objected to his heresies, Mr. Protsiv, based on the fact that I belong to the Orthodox Church, began a systematic onslaught on my Church, publicly calling it, a number of times, a sect of blind apostates.

Your Grace, I am not writing this to you because of a need to "win" some Internet theological debate. My actual purpose is to do something in order to stop the rabid heretical preaching on public fora that Mr. Protsiv is aggressively engaged in. Again, rational arguments on the Internet seem to have no positive effect on Mr. Protsiv's behavior; rather, attempts to reason with him only exacerbate his aggressiveness, crass language and extremely uncharitable, rude, insulting remarks not merely about individuals but also about whole Christian communities and jurisdictions.

I am positive that Mr. Protsiv is in dire need of a serious pastoral care and possibly also of some form of ecclesiastical discipline. If this care and discipline are not delivered, Mr. Protsiv will continue to misrepresent not only his (and your) jurisdiction but the entire body of Apostolic and Counciliar Christian beliefs.

Unfortunately, it is my impression that the Ukrainian community that reads the "Maidan" forum, where Mr. Protsiv preaches, is not always well-catechized. Mr. Protsiv can, and actually does, use this sad fact for his advantage, aiming at making converts into Gnostic, Docetist and Monophysitist pseudo-Christianity. I just really don't want this to happen, and I ask you, Your Grace, to help me to prevent this from happening. I also worry that Mr. Protsiv, not actually sharing the Catholic faith, continues to receive the Holy Eucharist and thus "eats and drinks judgment on himself" (1 Cor. 11:27-29).

Thank you for your time and kind consideration. Please let me know if there is something - in addition to praying for Mr. Protsiv, - that you believe I could personally do to help this matter.

In Christ's love and service,
your unworthy servant

George (Heorhij) Pinchuk
2106 Douglas McArthur Drive
Starkville, MS 39759
Tel. (662)-329-7281 (work), (662) 324-5238 (home)
Fax (662) 329-7238
E-mail gpinchuk@as.muw.edu

Відповіді

  • 2010.01.05 | _P.M._

    Георгію, марні ваші зусилля

    Не допоможе уже ніщо. Ні інтриги, ні обмовляння по-за очі різними мовами. Кредит довіри якщо й залишався, не безконечний. Самі ж і вичерпали його своїм тотальним невіглаством й поведінкою.

    На ФРД я прийшов проповідувати Боже Слово, й робитиму це, допоки вважатиму за потрібне. За кожне сказане мною слово готовий нести відповідь як перед людьми, так і перед Богом, й з усією відповідальністю стверджую:
    Погляди, котрі виносите на цьому форумі, носять відверто єретичний характер й нічого спільного з християнством не містять.

    Пересвідчитися в цьому, тим хто зацікавлений, дуже просто. Достатньо включитися в розмову й побачити, що практично усі ваші твердження відверто суперечать Святому Письму, офіційним документам Церкви, КАТЕХИЗМУ зокрема й також працям св. оо. Церкви.
    Окрім теологічної нестиковки, виступає тотальне невігластво (преображені протони :crazy: ) й відсутність елементарних логічних й філософських навиків в обгрунтуванні. Тому такі розмови зазвичай закінчуються відповідями: це велика тайна, або ж не знаю, запитаюся у священиків. І це в кращому випадку. Коли ж намагаєтесь щось видавати від себе, поряд з преображеними протонами можна почути пердли типу: Бог любить диявола; Бог нЕлюд й в такому дусі.

    Тож виносити антихристиянську облуду таки доведеться припинити, для вашої ж користи. Як і видавати себе християнами сектантам-віровідступникам уже не получиться.
  • 2010.01.05 | Георгій

    OK, got my parish priest's blessing; sending the letter out tomo

    rrow. Pane Protsiv, you got it ALL wrong; the heretic is YOU.

    My priest and other people on the OC.net have only one concern, i.e. that the Ukrainian Catholic bishop would care...
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    • 2010.01.05 | _P.M._

      соромно писати українською, чи перемкнуло уже

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      • 2010.01.05 | Георгій

        He asks whether I am "ashamed" to write in Ukrainian

        This thread is for English speakers.

        No, I am not ashamed of anything.

        Again, the reason I fight you on this forum is that YOU are a heretic. You deny true humanity of the resurrected and ascended Christ. You confuse people by jiggling with random quotes, "proving" a "heavenly nature" of a human being, blasphemously alluding that it was identical to the Divine nature before the Fall and that Christ has only the Divine nature (which is a classical Gnostic heresy and a classical Eutychian Monophysitism). You distort the teaching of the Church about the resurrection of the body, making an Origenist claim that the resurrected body will be void of any substance/ human essence/ nature, be un-tangible, invisible, rid of its present shape and form.

        Also, I fight you because you insult and humiliate and malign my Church, the Orthodox Church, calling it a sect of apostates. In fact, there is no difference whatsoever between the Orthodox and the Catholic Christology and soteriology. Since some of the Maidan readers might be lacking catechization and might therefore be confused, I am greatly concerned that they might side with you because you are, allegedly, a "progressive" "westernized" Catholic and I am, allegedly, a "retrograde" "obscurantist" Orthodox. But you aren't Catholic as long as you completely misunderstand the Catholic teachings and spit out your rabid heresies. And it is your promulgating the ages-old, ancient, antiquated, shabby, abandoned heresies that is retrograde and obscurantist and HAMPERING the progress, particularly, of the Ukrainian people who are reading this forum.

        So, I WILL send my letter, with Fr. Chris's blessing, and I WILL "hunt you down" (make you identified and personally known by your priest and bishop as a rabid heretic), and I WILL do all I can that you receive pastoral care and, if your Church consents, ecclesiastical discipline.

        May the Lord be with you, my ill brother.
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        • 2010.01.05 | Георгій

          BTW, the link, again, for anyone who follows or wishes to follow

          The take on the situation by quite a few well-catechized, well-read, sane people, including even an Armenian Miaphysite (Salpy), on the OC.net forum:

          http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,25120.0/all.html
        • 2010.01.06 | _P.M._

          файтати -- скільки влізе

          Виносити ж антихристиянську облуду на ФРД, як і про будь-які просторікування на релігійні теми -- ЗАБУДЬТЕ.

          Георгій пише:
          > Also, I fight you
          sobaka laje -- karavan ide
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          • 2010.01.06 | Георгій

            He says that "it is prohibited that you publicize disgusting...

            ... heresies."

            How true.
  • 2010.01.05 | Георгій

    Sent

  • 2010.01.11 | _P.M._

    чинитиму згідно Слова

    Проповідуй Слово, допоминайся вчасно-невчасно, докоряй, забороняй, переконуй з терпеливістю та з наукою.
    Настане бо час, коли здорової науки не будуть триматись, але за своїми пожадливостями виберуть собі вчителів, щоб вони їхні вуха влещували.
    Вони слух свій від правди відвернуть та до байок нахиляться.
    Але ти будь пильний у всьому, терпи лихо, виконуй працю благовісника, сповняй свою службу.(2-е Тим.4:2-5)



    Й на поблажки не сподівайтеся http://www2.maidan.org.ua/n/rel/1260036864
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    • 2010.01.11 | Георгій

      He says, "I will do according to the Word..."

      ... and quotes 2 Tim. 4:2-5. Ends by threatening me that I will not get a reprieve.

      Funny morphing of a yet another Sola Scriptura - Sola Interpretatio Meus into Sola Scriptura Patresque Catechismusque - Sola Interpretatio Meus.

      Mr. _P.M._, it is YOU who will not get a reprieve from me as long as you are preaching your amalgam of Gnostic, Monophysitist and Origenist beliefs selling them as the teaching of Catholic Church. (Цe Вам від мeнe нe будe поблажки, поки Ви проповідуєтe Ваш власний пeрeплав гностицизму, монофізитизму і орігeнізму, видаючи ці фантазії за вчeння Католицької Цeркви.)
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      • 2010.01.11 | Stan

        Re: He says, "I will do according to the Word..."

        Heorhij, ask him to address Fr. Oleh as a priest should be addressed. He can't do that, and it shows how much he's deluded by PRIDE. One can't "preach the word of God" (indeed, even understand the word of God) in this state.
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        • 2010.01.11 | Георгій

          Re: He says, "I will do according to the Word..."

          Stan пише:
          > Heorhij, ask him to address Fr. Oleh as a priest should be addressed.
          (HP) I've actually done it more than once. _P.M._ used to say that "it must be a mistake of the Church to call priests Fathers, because it is against Mtt. 23:9; when I am in church, I call a priest "Father," but it's merely a concession - yet I am not responsible for sins of the Church." (Not a literal quote, it's been a while, but that's essentially what he said.) Also, he doubts that Fr. Oleh was even ordained; he wrote a while ago, "here we all are anonyms and nics - so how do I even know that he is a priest?"

          >He can't do that, and it shows how much he's deluded by PRIDE. One can't "preach the word of God" (indeed, even understand the word of God) in this state.
          (HP) Completely agree. But again, here, on this forum, there are all kinds of people; some might not be clear about the Church dogmatics, and/or might have rather vague idea about the rules of Orthopraxis, of the right (i.e. charitable and humble) conduct as the first necessary pre-requisite for the right Christian "kerygma." For them, again, _P.M._ might sound interesting, attractive.
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          • 2010.01.11 | Stan

            Re: He says, "I will do according to the Word..."


            > (HP) I've actually done it more than once. _P.M._ used to say that "it must be a mistake of the Church to call priests Fathers, because it is against Mtt. 23:9; when I am in church, I call a priest "Father," but it's merely a concession - yet I am not responsible for sins of the Church."


            Wow. Simply wow. This, from a "Catholic"?

            > Also, he doubts that Fr. Oleh was even ordained; he wrote a while ago, "here we all are anonyms and nics - so how do I even know that he is a priest?"

            He knows in his heart that this is simply an excuse. Don't you, PM? He just can't bring himself to address a priest with due respect. Sort of how posessed people have trouble making the sign of the Cross. Just sayin'...

            >
            > >He can't do that, and it shows how much he's deluded by PRIDE. One can't "preach the word of God" (indeed, even understand the word of God) in this state.
            > (HP) Completely agree. But again, here, on this forum, there are all kinds of people; some might not be clear about the Church dogmatics, and/or might have rather vague idea about the rules of Orthopraxis, of the right (i.e. charitable and humble) conduct as the first necessary pre-requisite for the right Christian "kerygma." For them, again, _P.M._ might sound interesting, attractive.

            Kerygma, shmerygma. "Let the tree be known by it's fruits". Also "love one another; by this sign people will know that you're my students". Simple, picture-Bible-for-kids knowledge is enough to see Mr. PM is no Christian. PM himself is quite capable of noticing logs this size - only in eyes of his neighbors, not his own.
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            • 2010.01.11 | Георгій

              Re: He says, "I will do according to the Word..."

              Stan пише:
              >
              > > (HP) I've actually done it more than once. _P.M._ used to say that "it must be a mistake of the Church to call priests Fathers, because it is against Mtt. 23:9; when I am in church, I call a priest "Father," but it's merely a concession - yet I am not responsible for sins of the Church."
              > Wow. Simply wow. This, from a "Catholic"?
              (HP) I know. BTW, here's one good response to this claim, from a Catholic web site:

              Calling our priests "father" is not unique to Catholics. The Eastern Orthodox and Anglican Church (Protestant) do as well. I find it strange that non-Catholics tend to ignore this verse: "Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ (Matt. 23:10). Then we read this from scripture: "Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel (1 Corinthians 4:15)." Point this out to your friends! Or what about this advice to the Philippians: "But you know that Timothy has proved himself, because as a son with his father he has served with me in the work of the gospel." (Phil 2:22). What about this from Romans 4:11, "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them." Paul is referring to Abraham as the "father of all who believe."

              My good friend Gary Hoge wrote the best answer in understanding Matthew 23:9. "This verse has nothing whatsoever to do with the proper use of the word "father," it has to do with the proper attitude of Christians toward their brothers, and toward God. Therefore, it is perfectly appropriate for Catholics, and others, to give the title "father" to their ministers. In doing so they are not being disobedient to Jesus, rather they are following the apostolic example established by Paul and John." Now, let me address the last part of your question. The word Pope is not in the bible but the concept of the office of pope is.

              http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/Catholic/callnomanfather.html

              > > Also, he doubts that Fr. Oleh was even ordained; he wrote a while ago, "here we all are anonyms and nics - so how do I even know that he is a priest?"
              > He knows in his heart that this is simply an excuse. Don't you, PM? He just can't bring himself to address a priest with due respect. Sort of how posessed people have trouble making the sign of the Cross. Just sayin'...
              (HP) Again, I believe you are right. That's also the reason he CANNOT possibly say that "in one Person of Christ there are two natures, Divine and human." It burns him. Yes... very likely, a possession...
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              • 2010.01.11 | Stan

                Re: He says, "I will do according to the Word..."

                Георгій пише:

                > (HP) I know. BTW, here's one good response to this claim, from a Catholic web site:

                Aside from the very valid arguments, this is simply a sight to behold. A "faithful Catholic" layman, at ease with judging "sins of the Church"! St. Ignatius and St. Augustine would have some choice words for him.
              • 2010.01.11 | Stan

                Re: He says, "I will do according to the Word..."

                Георгій пише:
                > (HP) Again, I believe you are right. That's also the reason he CANNOT possibly say that "in one Person of Christ there are two natures, Divine and human." It burns him. Yes... very likely, a possession...

                Well, none of us is qualified to make this call. But definitely some very real spiritual trouble.
      • 2010.01.11 | _P.M._

        Re:

        Георгій пише:
        > Цe Вам від мeнe нe будe поблажки, поки Ви проповідуєтe Ваш власний пeрeплав гностицизму, монофізитизму і орігeнізму, видаючи ці фантазії за вчeння Католицької Цeркви.
        :lol:
        http://www2.maidan.org.ua/n/rel/1260920901
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        • 2010.01.12 | Георгій

          Лузeр цe Ви, алe я хочу Вас нe "розчавити," а зупинити і...

          ... допомогти оговтатися, оклигати від Вашої дійсно дужe сeрйозної духовної хвороби. Щоби Ви пeрeстали богохульно називати тілeснe вознeсіння Христа в нeбо з усім Його, як Ви кажeтe, "причандаллям" "дурницeю і огидною антихристиянською єрeссю."

          Cподіваюся, Ваш єпископ вжe прочитав мого другого листа. Якщо цeй лист нe допоможe - якщо Вас нe ідeнтифікують і/або до Вас нe будe вжито цeрковної дисципліни, - я всe рівно буду далі працювати для того, щоби цe сталося. Поїду до Чікаго і собисто поговорю з єпископом Річардом. Говоритиму з іншими єпископами, кардиналами, та навіть і з папою.

          Вас трeба зупинити. Ви одeржимий, оскажeнілий, навіжeний єрeтик. Тільки такий навіжeний чи одeржимий можe роками проповідувати, що Христос "увійшов у нашу понижeність тільки на час, побув людиною з людським тілом, а потім знищив цe понижeнe тіло і вознісся Духом, і тeпeр має тільки Божу природу." Або що "Христос завжди був і є людина, тому що Бог людяний." Або що справжня природа людини нeбeсна і тотожна Божій (бeзматeріальна, бeзпросторова, нeвидима, нeобмeжeна "зовнішіми видимими ознаками" і т.д.), і що спасіння полягає у "позбавлeнні від сотворeного."

          Дужe сподіваюся, що Цeрква всe-таки Вас скоро зупинить, і можe навіть вилікує.

          Хай Господь Вас милує.
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          • 2010.01.12 | _P.M._

            хотеть нє врєдно, гадити вам полюбому доведеться припинити

            Не припините -- СКАЗИТЕСЬ.

            p.s. англійською скільки влізе ;)
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            • 2010.01.12 | Георгій

              Нe зводьтe на мeнe наклeпy - Ви ніколи нe спромоглися вказати...

              ... в чому самe я "гаджу." В тому, що славлю людину ЗАМІCТь Бога? Цe нeправда. В тому, що повторюю, нібито, "огидну антихристиянську єрeсь", яка кажe, що Христос нe знищив Cвого зачатого і вирослого в лоні Богородиці людського тіла, а возніс Його в нeбо прeображeним? Так цe нe єрeсь, а цeрковна догматика. В чому ж моє "гаджeння?"
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              • 2010.01.12 | _P.M._

                "Устами твоїми, злий рабе, суджу я тебе!" (Луки 19:22)

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                • 2010.01.12 | Георгій

                  He says that I will be judged based on what my mouth says

                  Please say with YOUR mouth: "In one Person of Jesus Christ, there are two natures: one Divine and the other human."
            • 2010.01.12 | Георгій

              Translation: Mr. _P.M._ with his usual "charitability" says...

              ... that he knows that I will stop "shitting" (or "crapping" on this forum. Then he "graciously" adds, "in English you may continue to shit." I asked him in my reply, could he please stop slandering me, as he was never able to point specifically to anything in my posts that could be taken as "shitting." (Is saying that Christ ascended in the SAME body He created and grew in the womb of the Theotokos, albeit transformed and glorified - "shitting?")
        • 2010.01.12 | Георгій

          For the English speakers, translation

          Mr. _P.M._ says that I am a "loser" who is like a jackal, whom the bull will trump. The "bull" is, apparently, him, Mr. P.M._, who thinks that he has the might of the bull because he is "armed with the Word."

          I told him that it's him who is a loser; yet, I do not want to trup or squash him - I want him stopped and healed from his insane heresies. I want him to be stopped - not by me, but by the clergy of his Church, - from blasphemous statements like "it is an idiocy and a digusting anti-Christian heresy that Christ grew for Himself body parts (he uses a crasser term) on this earth and rose all this (crass word) to heaven."

          I wrote that it is my hope that his Bishop has already read my second letter to the chancery. If this letter will not achieve what I want it to achieve, - i.e. if mr. _P.M._ will still remain unidentified and/or the ecclesiastical discipline will not be imposed on him, - I will not stop: I will perhaps go to Chicago, have a conference with His Grace Bishop Richard Seminack, or maybe with other bishops, cardinals, even with the Pope himself.

          Mr. _P.M._ has to be stopped because he acts like a possessed, rabid, ravaging heretic. Only a possessed or a rabid man can preach for YEARS that "Christ entered our lowly human nature only for a time, as he acted like a human only on earth, but then he destroyed this humanity with its lowliness and ascended into heaven as a pure Spirit, having now only one Divine nature." Or that "God the Word has ever been Man (even before the Incarnation), because our God is humane." Or that the true human nature is purely heavenly, identical to the Divine nature (in that it is void of matter, substance, spatial limitations or contours or shape, and has no "outward, visible characteristics," and so the salvation from sin means "getting rid of everything 'created' or 'creaturly' in us and becoming (again?) God."

          I do hope that the Church will stop this heretic before long, and maybe She will even heal him.

          Lord, please have mercy on this spiritually damaged, sick man.


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